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Carrying Capacity and Weights Carried by Wagon or Cart
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<blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 8470350" data-attributes="member: 57383"><p>The Vehicles in the 5E <em>Player's Handbook</em> have basically been copy-pasted from 3E (compare the 5E SRD's <a href="https://www.5esrd.com/equipment/mounts-and-vehicles/" target="_blank"><strong>Mounts & Vehicles</strong></a> to the 3E SRD's <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#transport" target="_blank"><strong>transports</strong></a>). Some of the weights are so low one wonders if whoever wrote them for 3E had even seen a cart or wagon.</p><p></p><p>If that wagon can carry 923 pounds, at those ratios a cart could only carry 411 pounds.</p><p></p><p>What kind of trader or farmer would buy a cart that can only haul so little? If they loaded it with a single barrel of beer and sat down in its driver's seat, the thing might collapse!</p><p></p><p>That said, the Prairie Schooner you used has the lowest Empty Weight vs. Cargo Weight ratio of the vehicles whose figures are offered:</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th><p style="text-align: left">Vehicle</p> </th><th><p style="text-align: center">Empty Weight</p> </th><th><p style="text-align: center">Cargo Weight</p> </th><th><p style="text-align: center">Carry Ratio</p> </th></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: left">Prairie Schooner</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">1,300</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">3,000</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">2.3077</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: left">British Army Wagon</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">1,380</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">5,000</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">3.6232</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: left">Borax Wagon</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">7,800</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">20,000</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">2.5641</p> </td></tr></table><p></p><p>Note that the Schooner and the Army Wagon have nearly identical weights, but the Army Wagon can carry a whole ton more. The Prairie Schooner was intended to travel for month across the wilderness without breaking down, so I suspect that the recommended 2,500 to 3,000 pound load is deliberately low to reduce the risk of damage (and put less strain on the mules).</p><p></p><p>The Borax Wagon, on the other hand was exceptionally sturdy - none of them ever broke down. So it too was likely heavier than average.</p><p></p><p>That Army Wagon, on the other hand, seems more like an "average wagon", since the Army would have lots of them in a baggage train, so it would matter less if one broke down. Since it's a 1914 or so design, it will have a metal parts such as wheel hubs, rims and axles that a D&D Wagon is unlikely to have, I'd think those would be mostly wood with some leather, rope or canvas.</p><p></p><p>I'm inclined to split the difference and use an average Carry Ratio of 3.</p><p></p><p>As for D&D carts and wagon loads, if it were up to me I'd multiple the empty weights (200 lb. cart, 400 lb. wagon) by a factor of 2.5 to 3.75, to the SRD sources and toss in some of the 2E flavour, plus a few touches of my own, to get:</p><p></p><p><strong>Cart:</strong> This two-wheeled vehicle is usually drawn by a single horse (or other beast of burden) but can be pulled by two. It comes with a harness.</p><p> <em>Cost:</em> 15 gp, <em>Weight:</em> 500 pounds, <em>Capacity:</em> carries up to 1,500 pounds cargo.</p><p></p><p><strong>Wagon:</strong> This is a four-wheeled, open vehicle for transporting heavy loads. In general, two heavy horses draw it (or other beasts of burden), but it can be hitched to anywhere from one to twelve draft animals, or maybe even more. A wagon comes with the harness needed to pull it.</p><p> <em>Cost:</em> 35 gp, <em>Weight:</em> 1,500 pounds, <em>Capacity:</em> carries up to 5,000 pounds cargo.</p><p></p><p> Larger and sturdier wagons are possible, but more expensive.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: I've since come across an <strong><a href="https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=219053&start=45#p1989961" target="_blank"><strong>interesting post</strong></a></strong> on Axis History about "Red Army" horse-drawn carriages. The most salient section are:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So a small one-horse cart or gig would carry 500 kg or four passengers, a one-horse wagon 750 kg of cargo and a two-horse wagon 1,500 kg.</p><p></p><p>Since an average horse weighs about 500 kg, that follows the "1.5 bodyweight" rule.</p><p></p><p>Also, a "heavy duty" horse drawn vehicle weighed 1/3rd the load it could carry, a "light duty" vehicle (i.e. one unsuitable for rough terrain) could carry 1/4th.</p><p></p><p>So the Carry Ratio of 3 I suggested above corresponds to the Russian specification for a "heavy duty" vehicle.</p><p></p><p>A lightweight cart able to carry, say, 1,200 pounds would weigh about 300 pounds empty.</p><p></p><p>A lightweight wagon able to carry 4,000 pounds would weigh about 1,000 pounds.</p><p></p><p>Presumably wagons intended to carry particularly massive loads would be unlikely to be "light duty" in construction. Apart from the famous 10-ton capacity Borax Wagons, heavy wagons able to carry up to five or six tons seemed to be fairly common.</p><p></p><p>For example, the <strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon" target="_blank"><strong>Conestoga Wagon</strong></a></strong> could transport up to six tons.</p><p></p><p>Some Beer Wagons could carry up to two dozen barrels of beer, or maybe even more. Since a 36 gallon beer barrel weighs about 450 pounds, that's about 11,000 pounds or so. This <strong><a href="https://i0.wp.com/www.aperfectpint.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/beer-wagon.jpg" target="_blank">picture</a></strong> shows a good sized "Brewer's Dray" (apparently it should be called a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_dray" target="_blank"><strong>Horse-Drawn Trolley</strong></a> rather than a Dray) that appears to be carrying about 24 barrels and about twenty or so smaller casks - mostly firkins and a few kilderkins, by the look of them (see <strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_brewery_cask_units" target="_blank">English Cask Units</a></strong>):</p><p></p><p><img src="https://i0.wp.com/www.aperfectpint.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/beer-wagon.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>Unfortunately those barrels are obviously empty, as they have no bungs in them, so there's no concrete evidence the wagon could handle such a load. Also, note the triple-hitched horses pulling the wagon - I think that's the first time I've seen a "Troika" pulling a beer trolley.</p><p></p><p>Here's a few more pictures I stumbled upon:</p><p></p><p><img src="https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.vnCP-4AW9y8AzUZz8ge0fwHaFA%26pid%3DApi&f=1" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>Looks like ten barrels plus a couple of drivers, so 4,800 to 4,900 pounds. There are plenty of 5,000 pound wagons mentioned in catalogs and online. Note that was the load capacity of the British Army Wagon.</p><p></p><p><img src="https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.AuyBO9z4WXNTxYZMr5BktwHaFs%26pid%3DApi&f=1" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>Obviously a modern design - note the inflatable tires and steelwork, plus the metal kegs are a bit of a giveaway! Look like maybe twenty kilderkins and at least three firkins, say twelve barrel's worth. Metal kegs are a bit lighter, but that's still about 5,000 pounds or so.</p><p></p><p><img src="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/c3/ed/0dc3ed1f569ff6d1edb6fada8cadffdf.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>It's not all barrels! About twenty cases of stout plus a driver. So 24 pint bottles per case for maybe 55 pounds a case? It's hard to find pint bottles these days, but a 500 ml glass bottle of beer weighs 800-900g full, so including the box that sounds about right. That's only 1,100 pounds plus the driver, explaining why it only needs one horse to pull it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cleon, post: 8470350, member: 57383"] The Vehicles in the 5E [I]Player's Handbook[/I] have basically been copy-pasted from 3E (compare the 5E SRD's [URL='https://www.5esrd.com/equipment/mounts-and-vehicles/'][B]Mounts & Vehicles[/B][/URL] to the 3E SRD's [URL='https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#transport'][B]transports[/B][/URL]). Some of the weights are so low one wonders if whoever wrote them for 3E had even seen a cart or wagon. If that wagon can carry 923 pounds, at those ratios a cart could only carry 411 pounds. What kind of trader or farmer would buy a cart that can only haul so little? If they loaded it with a single barrel of beer and sat down in its driver's seat, the thing might collapse! That said, the Prairie Schooner you used has the lowest Empty Weight vs. Cargo Weight ratio of the vehicles whose figures are offered: [TABLE] [TR] [TH][LEFT]Vehicle[/LEFT][/TH] [TH][CENTER]Empty Weight[/CENTER][/TH] [TH][CENTER]Cargo Weight[/CENTER][/TH] [TH][CENTER]Carry Ratio[/CENTER][/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD][LEFT]Prairie Schooner[/LEFT][/TD] [TD][CENTER]1,300[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]3,000[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]2.3077[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][LEFT]British Army Wagon[/LEFT][/TD] [TD][CENTER]1,380[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]5,000[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]3.6232[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][LEFT]Borax Wagon[/LEFT][/TD] [TD][CENTER]7,800[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]20,000[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]2.5641[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Note that the Schooner and the Army Wagon have nearly identical weights, but the Army Wagon can carry a whole ton more. The Prairie Schooner was intended to travel for month across the wilderness without breaking down, so I suspect that the recommended 2,500 to 3,000 pound load is deliberately low to reduce the risk of damage (and put less strain on the mules). The Borax Wagon, on the other hand was exceptionally sturdy - none of them ever broke down. So it too was likely heavier than average. That Army Wagon, on the other hand, seems more like an "average wagon", since the Army would have lots of them in a baggage train, so it would matter less if one broke down. Since it's a 1914 or so design, it will have a metal parts such as wheel hubs, rims and axles that a D&D Wagon is unlikely to have, I'd think those would be mostly wood with some leather, rope or canvas. I'm inclined to split the difference and use an average Carry Ratio of 3. As for D&D carts and wagon loads, if it were up to me I'd multiple the empty weights (200 lb. cart, 400 lb. wagon) by a factor of 2.5 to 3.75, to the SRD sources and toss in some of the 2E flavour, plus a few touches of my own, to get: [B]Cart:[/B] This two-wheeled vehicle is usually drawn by a single horse (or other beast of burden) but can be pulled by two. It comes with a harness. [I]Cost:[/I] 15 gp, [I]Weight:[/I] 500 pounds, [I]Capacity:[/I] carries up to 1,500 pounds cargo. [B]Wagon:[/B] This is a four-wheeled, open vehicle for transporting heavy loads. In general, two heavy horses draw it (or other beasts of burden), but it can be hitched to anywhere from one to twelve draft animals, or maybe even more. A wagon comes with the harness needed to pull it. [I]Cost:[/I] 35 gp, [I]Weight:[/I] 1,500 pounds, [I]Capacity:[/I] carries up to 5,000 pounds cargo. Larger and sturdier wagons are possible, but more expensive. EDIT: I've since come across an [B][URL='https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=219053&start=45#p1989961'][B]interesting post[/B][/URL][/B] on Axis History about "Red Army" horse-drawn carriages. The most salient section are: So a small one-horse cart or gig would carry 500 kg or four passengers, a one-horse wagon 750 kg of cargo and a two-horse wagon 1,500 kg. Since an average horse weighs about 500 kg, that follows the "1.5 bodyweight" rule. Also, a "heavy duty" horse drawn vehicle weighed 1/3rd the load it could carry, a "light duty" vehicle (i.e. one unsuitable for rough terrain) could carry 1/4th. So the Carry Ratio of 3 I suggested above corresponds to the Russian specification for a "heavy duty" vehicle. A lightweight cart able to carry, say, 1,200 pounds would weigh about 300 pounds empty. A lightweight wagon able to carry 4,000 pounds would weigh about 1,000 pounds. Presumably wagons intended to carry particularly massive loads would be unlikely to be "light duty" in construction. Apart from the famous 10-ton capacity Borax Wagons, heavy wagons able to carry up to five or six tons seemed to be fairly common. For example, the [B][URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon'][B]Conestoga Wagon[/B][/URL][/B] could transport up to six tons. Some Beer Wagons could carry up to two dozen barrels of beer, or maybe even more. Since a 36 gallon beer barrel weighs about 450 pounds, that's about 11,000 pounds or so. This [B][URL='https://i0.wp.com/www.aperfectpint.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/beer-wagon.jpg']picture[/URL][/B] shows a good sized "Brewer's Dray" (apparently it should be called a [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_dray'][B]Horse-Drawn Trolley[/B][/URL] rather than a Dray) that appears to be carrying about 24 barrels and about twenty or so smaller casks - mostly firkins and a few kilderkins, by the look of them (see [B][URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_brewery_cask_units']English Cask Units[/URL][/B]): [IMG]https://i0.wp.com/www.aperfectpint.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/beer-wagon.jpg[/IMG] Unfortunately those barrels are obviously empty, as they have no bungs in them, so there's no concrete evidence the wagon could handle such a load. Also, note the triple-hitched horses pulling the wagon - I think that's the first time I've seen a "Troika" pulling a beer trolley. Here's a few more pictures I stumbled upon: [IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.vnCP-4AW9y8AzUZz8ge0fwHaFA%26pid%3DApi&f=1[/IMG] Looks like ten barrels plus a couple of drivers, so 4,800 to 4,900 pounds. There are plenty of 5,000 pound wagons mentioned in catalogs and online. Note that was the load capacity of the British Army Wagon. [IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.AuyBO9z4WXNTxYZMr5BktwHaFs%26pid%3DApi&f=1[/IMG] Obviously a modern design - note the inflatable tires and steelwork, plus the metal kegs are a bit of a giveaway! Look like maybe twenty kilderkins and at least three firkins, say twelve barrel's worth. Metal kegs are a bit lighter, but that's still about 5,000 pounds or so. [IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/c3/ed/0dc3ed1f569ff6d1edb6fada8cadffdf.jpg[/IMG] It's not all barrels! About twenty cases of stout plus a driver. So 24 pint bottles per case for maybe 55 pounds a case? It's hard to find pint bottles these days, but a 500 ml glass bottle of beer weighs 800-900g full, so including the box that sounds about right. That's only 1,100 pounds plus the driver, explaining why it only needs one horse to pull it. [/QUOTE]
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