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<blockquote data-quote="Lerysh" data-source="post: 6412197" data-attributes="member: 6783796"><p>Classic argument for Roleplay vs Roll-play. If the player isn't interested in engaging with the world he's probably better off playing an MMO where everything is decided for him and he just has to push buttons kill things. That said adventure logic trains are usually bad game design. Having to figure out the exact set of key information to proceed that occurred to the designer at the time can be infuriating. It's hard to follow someone else's logic train sometimes. Instead of "I look at X, tell me about X" there needs to at least be a "I look for clues" and Roll Int (Investigate) check. Maybe the DC is 5 higher to look generally vs Specific. Maybe the check points out the strange purple bow again, which your character thinks is suspicious. Maybe you randomly select an object or person that the PC "specifically investigates" when he does something general. Point is to move the story forward.</p><p></p><p>Atempting to bend reality to your will with Charisma (Persuasion) checks is bad, but dismissing the PCs ideas on how they want to shape the story is equally bad. In your example I'd have the Duke say something like "You've given me a lot to think about" or "I'll discuss this with the town council". Later the Duke, who was swayed by the PC, can lay blame on someone else for not going the direction the PCs wanted but the effects of the check can be felt. </p><p></p><p>For the guards and criminals thing, the PCs are in fact heroes. If this is the same town where they can get an audience with the Duke, why exactly is the town guard not going to respond to them? If you were a town guard, and an armed, obviously well intentioned, powerful adventurer came up to you and said, "Look, I need you to lay off these guys for a while. I can't explain now, but it's for the greater good," where is the harm in going with it?</p><p></p><p>The most important tool in a DM's arsenal is the word "yes". If the players ask you a question it's because they have an idea they want to use and are checking their information. If someone asks "did that wizard have a beard" you say yes. They then try to impersonate that wizard and advance the plot. That was the idea they wanted to use but they needed encouragement to go forward with it.</p><p></p><p>Finally, that adventure described with the unsolvable suicide is, in fact, stupid. To present a problem and just expect the PCs to IGNORE said problem is terrible, awful, horribly bad adventure design. It's like saying "Here's a cookie, but you can't have the cookie, you can only stare longingly at the cookie until you go eat your vegetables in this other town where wizards are controlling the cookies". Forget that and give the players their cookie, whenever possible. Is there a reason, other than it was printed in the adventure, why this guard couldn't commit suicide one town over, where there is actually an evil wizard infestation and succubus problem? Why make them frustrated and then change scenes with no resolution in the first place? Also, encountering a succubus is NEVER a problem. Why, exactly, would she kill the players when she could dominate one of them instead, tell him to kill the others, and fly off, thus you see the answer to the problem and the reason to go to the next town right away.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lerysh, post: 6412197, member: 6783796"] Classic argument for Roleplay vs Roll-play. If the player isn't interested in engaging with the world he's probably better off playing an MMO where everything is decided for him and he just has to push buttons kill things. That said adventure logic trains are usually bad game design. Having to figure out the exact set of key information to proceed that occurred to the designer at the time can be infuriating. It's hard to follow someone else's logic train sometimes. Instead of "I look at X, tell me about X" there needs to at least be a "I look for clues" and Roll Int (Investigate) check. Maybe the DC is 5 higher to look generally vs Specific. Maybe the check points out the strange purple bow again, which your character thinks is suspicious. Maybe you randomly select an object or person that the PC "specifically investigates" when he does something general. Point is to move the story forward. Atempting to bend reality to your will with Charisma (Persuasion) checks is bad, but dismissing the PCs ideas on how they want to shape the story is equally bad. In your example I'd have the Duke say something like "You've given me a lot to think about" or "I'll discuss this with the town council". Later the Duke, who was swayed by the PC, can lay blame on someone else for not going the direction the PCs wanted but the effects of the check can be felt. For the guards and criminals thing, the PCs are in fact heroes. If this is the same town where they can get an audience with the Duke, why exactly is the town guard not going to respond to them? If you were a town guard, and an armed, obviously well intentioned, powerful adventurer came up to you and said, "Look, I need you to lay off these guys for a while. I can't explain now, but it's for the greater good," where is the harm in going with it? The most important tool in a DM's arsenal is the word "yes". If the players ask you a question it's because they have an idea they want to use and are checking their information. If someone asks "did that wizard have a beard" you say yes. They then try to impersonate that wizard and advance the plot. That was the idea they wanted to use but they needed encouragement to go forward with it. Finally, that adventure described with the unsolvable suicide is, in fact, stupid. To present a problem and just expect the PCs to IGNORE said problem is terrible, awful, horribly bad adventure design. It's like saying "Here's a cookie, but you can't have the cookie, you can only stare longingly at the cookie until you go eat your vegetables in this other town where wizards are controlling the cookies". Forget that and give the players their cookie, whenever possible. Is there a reason, other than it was printed in the adventure, why this guard couldn't commit suicide one town over, where there is actually an evil wizard infestation and succubus problem? Why make them frustrated and then change scenes with no resolution in the first place? Also, encountering a succubus is NEVER a problem. Why, exactly, would she kill the players when she could dominate one of them instead, tell him to kill the others, and fly off, thus you see the answer to the problem and the reason to go to the next town right away. [/QUOTE]
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