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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6420683" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Good post and all undeniably true. Every time these conversations come up and the false inferences that ignore the legacy construct of the system (contrived wargame skeleton and post-hoc fictional elements clumsily hung over it), it strikes me as some odd D&D version of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. Just because folks have internalized levels (spells and/or class), experience points, hit points, armor class (on and on), it doesn't suddenly make them "fiction-first" and it certainly doesn't make them coherent. Malleable enough to work as simulation if you squint vigorously? I suppose. But that doesn't allow for the inversion of the design origin of the gaming engine, nor the (rife) clumsy synthesis of system and fiction (as a process simulator), and it certainly doesn't make it intuitive for anyone who hasn't spent a fair bit of time "Clockworking Oranging" themselves (as we all have I guess) into either buying into D&D's idiosyncratic incoherencies or at least averting our eyes (with a tacit admission that Something Is Rotten in Denmark) when it gets too much.</p><p></p><p>Dungeon World's Defy Danger, XP for failure, and HP/Armor model vs AD&D's Saving Throw, XP for Gold, and HP/AC model are world's apart from one another in terms of intuitiveness for a newbie TTRPG player. I've introduced 5 new players (including an 8 year old) to DW and its immediately understood. I don't know how many new RPGers I introduced to AD&D (dozens). The ratio of face palms to light bulbs was not good. </p><p></p><p>What is most interesting is how difficult it seems to be for many long-time D&D players to grok (minimalist) systems (like Dungeon World) that are pretty straight-forward but don't possess the mental gymnastics and cognitive workload requirements of D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6420683, member: 6696971"] Good post and all undeniably true. Every time these conversations come up and the false inferences that ignore the legacy construct of the system (contrived wargame skeleton and post-hoc fictional elements clumsily hung over it), it strikes me as some odd D&D version of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. Just because folks have internalized levels (spells and/or class), experience points, hit points, armor class (on and on), it doesn't suddenly make them "fiction-first" and it certainly doesn't make them coherent. Malleable enough to work as simulation if you squint vigorously? I suppose. But that doesn't allow for the inversion of the design origin of the gaming engine, nor the (rife) clumsy synthesis of system and fiction (as a process simulator), and it certainly doesn't make it intuitive for anyone who hasn't spent a fair bit of time "Clockworking Oranging" themselves (as we all have I guess) into either buying into D&D's idiosyncratic incoherencies or at least averting our eyes (with a tacit admission that Something Is Rotten in Denmark) when it gets too much. Dungeon World's Defy Danger, XP for failure, and HP/Armor model vs AD&D's Saving Throw, XP for Gold, and HP/AC model are world's apart from one another in terms of intuitiveness for a newbie TTRPG player. I've introduced 5 new players (including an 8 year old) to DW and its immediately understood. I don't know how many new RPGers I introduced to AD&D (dozens). The ratio of face palms to light bulbs was not good. What is most interesting is how difficult it seems to be for many long-time D&D players to grok (minimalist) systems (like Dungeon World) that are pretty straight-forward but don't possess the mental gymnastics and cognitive workload requirements of D&D. [/QUOTE]
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