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Character play vs Player play
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<blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 6422189" data-attributes="member: 6779310"><p>I find it particularly useful, because it's the largest split between player groups that has lots of "I WILL NOT CROSS THIS LINE!!!" players... on both sides. And, it's the label the community that developed the counter-tradition chose for themselves... But not all of those in the Storygames movement accept the term as a subset of RPGing; some of them see it as the only RPGing. (*Cough*John*Cough*Wick*Cough*) It helps in discussions to use terms that don't overlap as much so that there's no "They aren't" accusation. </p><p></p><p>As for Traditional... The rise (in the early 90's) of what would become identified as Narrativism (in the late 90's) was always a minority in both users and designs. The games were, prior to about 1995, almost all designed for mechanical support of Strong GM, No/Limited player input into the setting, and almost entirely action resolution (often combat actions only), and almost all player input into setting or conditions was explicitly required to be vetted by the GM. 20 years is plenty long to be "tradition" - as is "the vast majority of players hang onto that style" - and it's a style with a large, wide, space for variation.</p><p></p><p>It also happens to be a term that's less <em>generally</em> offensive than the implication that the Storygames aren't RPGs. Especially to the smaller still subset who play across the spectrum. (Like me. In all great irony, I don't actually like most of the storygame engines... because I know I cannot trust all the people I play with to not cross the offensive-play line...)</p><p></p><p>And there are a lot of games that are still Roleplaying but neither Traditional nor really Storygames. Games like <em>Cosmic Patrol</em>... Weak GM, Action resolution, GM rotates scene by scene, plots on rails that make a Gygax dungeon look like a veritable macrame wall-hanging of choices, Everyone's PC is a GMPC every (number of players)th scene... It can be run as a rules-light traditional game... but it's not intended for that, and the advice within isn't suited for that use. Or like many educational sims, most of which are actually roleplaying, but use single roll event resolution, rather than specific action resolution. (I've run several different commercially released ones at work.) Or like GDW's old <em>En Garde</em> - which, outside of combat, uses scene resolution, but has strong GM, and is optimized for Play-by-mail... and dates to 1975. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Someone tried that argument on the Forge back in about 2003... it was a fallacy then, and still is now.</p><p></p><p>Skills, in part, date to 1975 (see D&D Supplement 1; same one also adds hit dice other than d6's and variable damage by type of weapon). They're part of the Trad space. In fact, they're absent in most of the Storygames. They're not generally something that governs narrative control, either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Adding an NPC pursuing the character for any reason is part of a Traditional GM's purview. It doesn't really matter whether that's pursuit for romance, rape, violence, meat, or information; what matters is that players don't axiomatically control anything but their character in trad play. Everything that isn't a PC belongs to the GM; Gygax even says so, in a backhanded (and IMO hamfisted) way in the AD&D 1E PHB, written in late 1976 (and published in 1977). (See PHB, p 8, lc, ¶3 and ¶5.) In the original edition, he merely strongly implies it.</p><p></p><p>And in trad play, even as a kid, I realized that I could, when the GM thrust a femme fatale in my Character's way, go ahead and disabuse said character of her notions. That was the almost explicit social contract of RPGs in the early 80's. The GM could tell you you had known X, but only you got to tell the GM how your character felt and feels about X.</p><p></p><p>With a GM who's trusted by the players, and doesn't abuse them, it's a non-issue.</p><p></p><p>I added to a PC's backstory last week. He's a former Gold Dragon. I mentioned that he recognized several of the leaders in the fresco in the cemetery... Nothing about how he felt. He added that. I merely noted that he recognized them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aramis erak, post: 6422189, member: 6779310"] I find it particularly useful, because it's the largest split between player groups that has lots of "I WILL NOT CROSS THIS LINE!!!" players... on both sides. And, it's the label the community that developed the counter-tradition chose for themselves... But not all of those in the Storygames movement accept the term as a subset of RPGing; some of them see it as the only RPGing. (*Cough*John*Cough*Wick*Cough*) It helps in discussions to use terms that don't overlap as much so that there's no "They aren't" accusation. As for Traditional... The rise (in the early 90's) of what would become identified as Narrativism (in the late 90's) was always a minority in both users and designs. The games were, prior to about 1995, almost all designed for mechanical support of Strong GM, No/Limited player input into the setting, and almost entirely action resolution (often combat actions only), and almost all player input into setting or conditions was explicitly required to be vetted by the GM. 20 years is plenty long to be "tradition" - as is "the vast majority of players hang onto that style" - and it's a style with a large, wide, space for variation. It also happens to be a term that's less [I]generally[/I] offensive than the implication that the Storygames aren't RPGs. Especially to the smaller still subset who play across the spectrum. (Like me. In all great irony, I don't actually like most of the storygame engines... because I know I cannot trust all the people I play with to not cross the offensive-play line...) And there are a lot of games that are still Roleplaying but neither Traditional nor really Storygames. Games like [i]Cosmic Patrol[/i]... Weak GM, Action resolution, GM rotates scene by scene, plots on rails that make a Gygax dungeon look like a veritable macrame wall-hanging of choices, Everyone's PC is a GMPC every (number of players)th scene... It can be run as a rules-light traditional game... but it's not intended for that, and the advice within isn't suited for that use. Or like many educational sims, most of which are actually roleplaying, but use single roll event resolution, rather than specific action resolution. (I've run several different commercially released ones at work.) Or like GDW's old [i]En Garde[/i] - which, outside of combat, uses scene resolution, but has strong GM, and is optimized for Play-by-mail... and dates to 1975. Someone tried that argument on the Forge back in about 2003... it was a fallacy then, and still is now. Skills, in part, date to 1975 (see D&D Supplement 1; same one also adds hit dice other than d6's and variable damage by type of weapon). They're part of the Trad space. In fact, they're absent in most of the Storygames. They're not generally something that governs narrative control, either. Adding an NPC pursuing the character for any reason is part of a Traditional GM's purview. It doesn't really matter whether that's pursuit for romance, rape, violence, meat, or information; what matters is that players don't axiomatically control anything but their character in trad play. Everything that isn't a PC belongs to the GM; Gygax even says so, in a backhanded (and IMO hamfisted) way in the AD&D 1E PHB, written in late 1976 (and published in 1977). (See PHB, p 8, lc, ¶3 and ¶5.) In the original edition, he merely strongly implies it. And in trad play, even as a kid, I realized that I could, when the GM thrust a femme fatale in my Character's way, go ahead and disabuse said character of her notions. That was the almost explicit social contract of RPGs in the early 80's. The GM could tell you you had known X, but only you got to tell the GM how your character felt and feels about X. With a GM who's trusted by the players, and doesn't abuse them, it's a non-issue. I added to a PC's backstory last week. He's a former Gold Dragon. I mentioned that he recognized several of the leaders in the fresco in the cemetery... Nothing about how he felt. He added that. I merely noted that he recognized them. [/QUOTE]
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