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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6935034" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>True enough, and that's a valid counter point to the argument of "look at how the rules are structured, how they have been structured in various editions, and easily identify what type expected playstyle those rules support."</p><p></p><p>It's even sorta right, by accident. Look for instance, not just at the much greater space devoted to magic-users in the 1e PH, look for corroboration in the PCs remembered from the original playtests - Tenser and Rary and so forth, and even EGG's own character, Mordenkainen - all magic-users. </p><p></p><p>But, no, you can't just look at the structure of the game, no matter how objectively, and divine the One True Way in which its meant to be played.</p><p>Because there isn't one.</p><p></p><p>Which was the point of bringing up that old saw about combat & page count. </p><p></p><p>Sure, but that's hardly fair to 1e AD&D. First of all, assuming RAW in 1e (RAW was coined for 3e, because that was the era when the idea that you could count on the rules in any sense gained some currency), when 1e assumed DM primacy over the rules. And, also, of course, in the simple sense that you couldn't run 1e like you ran 4e - it's simply impossible, as the tools to do so aren't there. 1e was a much earlier itteration, and it's rules simply weren't able to handle the same breadth of styles as later, more sophisticated systems. Not without, as you put it "DM intervention" (though, really, DM intervention /was/ assumed).</p><p></p><p>Depends on how the DM stocked the dungeon. Going just with treasure types, for instance - easy to do, since that's what's actually presented, you'll /only/ get treasure for defeating monsters (that are in their 'lair').</p><p></p><p>"Retired by name level, if they survived" would probably be more accurate. </p><p></p><p>Thief name level was 10th, and it was a decidedly weak class, you probably didn't make it to 10th as one without a CON bonus, some lucky HD rolls (or just a lot of luck in general) - or some DM Intervention.</p><p></p><p>And, yes, lethality dropped off rapidly. Monster damage potential and hps didn't balloon like they do in 5e, and player hps and saves did improve rapidly from 1st through name level.</p><p></p><p>Anyone who's ever played AD&D anywhere near raw never really played AD&D.</p><p></p><p>I get that 2e paid some lip service to the storytelling trend of the 90s and produced a lot of detailed settings that made tourism-style play almost interesting (and enough PC options that losing a PC might actually start to hurt a little), but D&D really did start as a wargame, and 3e merely came back to being open about that. 2e was the aberration in that sense, and, as much as 5e resembles 2e in many ways, a pretense of despising those wargaming roots is not one of them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6935034, member: 996"] True enough, and that's a valid counter point to the argument of "look at how the rules are structured, how they have been structured in various editions, and easily identify what type expected playstyle those rules support." It's even sorta right, by accident. Look for instance, not just at the much greater space devoted to magic-users in the 1e PH, look for corroboration in the PCs remembered from the original playtests - Tenser and Rary and so forth, and even EGG's own character, Mordenkainen - all magic-users. But, no, you can't just look at the structure of the game, no matter how objectively, and divine the One True Way in which its meant to be played. Because there isn't one. Which was the point of bringing up that old saw about combat & page count. Sure, but that's hardly fair to 1e AD&D. First of all, assuming RAW in 1e (RAW was coined for 3e, because that was the era when the idea that you could count on the rules in any sense gained some currency), when 1e assumed DM primacy over the rules. And, also, of course, in the simple sense that you couldn't run 1e like you ran 4e - it's simply impossible, as the tools to do so aren't there. 1e was a much earlier itteration, and it's rules simply weren't able to handle the same breadth of styles as later, more sophisticated systems. Not without, as you put it "DM intervention" (though, really, DM intervention /was/ assumed). Depends on how the DM stocked the dungeon. Going just with treasure types, for instance - easy to do, since that's what's actually presented, you'll /only/ get treasure for defeating monsters (that are in their 'lair'). "Retired by name level, if they survived" would probably be more accurate. Thief name level was 10th, and it was a decidedly weak class, you probably didn't make it to 10th as one without a CON bonus, some lucky HD rolls (or just a lot of luck in general) - or some DM Intervention. And, yes, lethality dropped off rapidly. Monster damage potential and hps didn't balloon like they do in 5e, and player hps and saves did improve rapidly from 1st through name level. Anyone who's ever played AD&D anywhere near raw never really played AD&D. I get that 2e paid some lip service to the storytelling trend of the 90s and produced a lot of detailed settings that made tourism-style play almost interesting (and enough PC options that losing a PC might actually start to hurt a little), but D&D really did start as a wargame, and 3e merely came back to being open about that. 2e was the aberration in that sense, and, as much as 5e resembles 2e in many ways, a pretense of despising those wargaming roots is not one of them. [/QUOTE]
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