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Class Analysis: Fighter and Bard
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<blockquote data-quote="ZombieRoboNinja" data-source="post: 6362921" data-attributes="member: 54843"><p>While I'm still cautiously of the opinion that "caster supremacy" isn't a big problem (with many provisos which I'll explain below), I want to thank Jack the Lad for his detailed and informative arguments on this issue. If I were scoring a debate here he would frankly have won pages ago, because he's the one providing the most appropriate and detailed arguments. But I'd like to go into it in a bit of detail, starting from a convenient list he made:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, first off, I only intend to argue that in the context of a typical combat-heavy adventure, in a situation where the DM is either pacing the adventure or tweaking the resting rules to mostly uphold recommended encounters per short and long rest, below level 17, and barring or houseruling the occasional broken spell, martial characters in general are able to contribute meaningfully alongside casters. That is a long, long list of provisos, and several of them frankly shouldn't be necessary: the "DM as rest-police" requirement came about when they basically officially decided that 5MWD was a DM problem, while the "many 9th-level spells and some others are broken" problem came about due to what can only have been insufficient testing, a desire to hew closely to the broken pre-4e iconic spells, and the almost unavoidable vagaries of having a spell chapter that's like 5 times as long as all the other combat rules in the game put together. That said, if you either stop at level 16 or add some crazy broken martial-only feats and abilities to even things out at high levels, and if you take a red marker to the spell chapter, I still think things will work pretty well. </p><p></p><p>Let's go through that list:</p><p></p><p>1. Faerie Fire is not a wizard spell. You've been pretty careful about not mixing things up here, but let's keep the class distinctions clear. For whatever reason, the "Fighter and Bard" thread turned into a "Wizard vs. Champion" thread, so let's stick with that comparison. (Which, we should remember, means that a chart similar to the OP's would result in a lot less "total health" for the wizard, since he doesn't get heal spells without special feats or multiclassing, and also has crappier armor.)</p><p></p><p>2. At level 1, Jump costs a very valuable spell slot, and it only lasts a minute, and it still will probably only give the wizard a jump distance of about 24-30 feat, about double that of the fighter. Meanwhile, the rest of the day the fighter can jump about twice as far as the wizard without spending any resources. Now, at higher levels this MIGHT be something to come back to, because a level 20 wizard will have enough preparation slots and level 1 spell slots that he can spend one on Jump if it seems potentially useful; however, by high levels the fighter's jump distance is 20-25 feet, depending on subclass, so by that time the spell barely pulls them ahead. I'd say this particular spell is actually pretty balanced.</p><p></p><p>3. Counterspell is great, but it's an even trade of your wizard's spell slots for the enemy spellcaster's. (Also, you can't get it until level 5.) If the enemy spell caster casts high-level spells than you can, you're very likely wasting a reaction and a spell slot, while if he starts casting level 1 or 2 spells, you're making a very inefficient resource trade. The Mage Slayer feat is way better (as it better be, since a feat is way more of an investment than a spell prepared).</p><p></p><p>4. Levitate may occasionally be useful against groups of melee-only enemies in an open area when you don't have to worry about the rest of the group, but that's a fairly limited circumstance. One goblin with a crossbow can screw you over pretty royally by breaking your concentration (or just shooting you until you die).</p><p></p><p>5. Fly has some of the same issues. It's especially poor for environmental obstacles, since (1) you're burning a pretty high-level slot, (2) you're only carrying yourself, and (3) a rogue or monk can probably do the same for free (or for 1 ki point), as can a fighter with good Athletics and some rope. That said, again, when you're level 20 you might not care about a level 3 slot. (Of course, at that point barbarians and sorcerers can fly for free.)</p><p></p><p>6. Fabricate is indeed stupid, at least the part about instantly crafting detailed stuff as long as you're proficient in the tools. Get rid of that last phrase and you're fine. (But also, I don't know why any fighter is manually crafting mundane armor for 300 days. Those are rules I'll be ignoring.)</p><p></p><p>7. I'd like to see some math on the undead skeletons out-damaging the fighter. Do you mean individually, or once you have a skeleton army? Because I'm really not that worried about skeleton armies. The situations where those are actually practical are pretty rare in a typical adventure scenario.</p><p></p><p>8. Fabricate again.</p><p></p><p>9. Why do you think you can cast cantrips through the wall? "Nothing can physically pass through," and I don't see an option for Forcecage-style gaps.</p><p></p><p>11. Contagion is poorly designed because it evades legendary resistances. Ugh. I'd rule that using a legendary resistance on your first Con save ends the spell.</p><p></p><p>12. True Polymorph is probably the worst-designed spell in the game. It seems like maybe they wrote the spell before they figured out what CR meant? Because surely they don't actually intend polymorph and true polymorph to be THREE TIMES as powerful as a druid's shapeshifting. And the permanency is just silly and broken. If I'm DMing, this spell can only become permanent on a form of CR2 or less, and it and polymorph are both limited to creatures of a CR=level/3 rounded down, just like druid shapeshifting. Honestly, I expect an official errata for this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ZombieRoboNinja, post: 6362921, member: 54843"] While I'm still cautiously of the opinion that "caster supremacy" isn't a big problem (with many provisos which I'll explain below), I want to thank Jack the Lad for his detailed and informative arguments on this issue. If I were scoring a debate here he would frankly have won pages ago, because he's the one providing the most appropriate and detailed arguments. But I'd like to go into it in a bit of detail, starting from a convenient list he made: Now, first off, I only intend to argue that in the context of a typical combat-heavy adventure, in a situation where the DM is either pacing the adventure or tweaking the resting rules to mostly uphold recommended encounters per short and long rest, below level 17, and barring or houseruling the occasional broken spell, martial characters in general are able to contribute meaningfully alongside casters. That is a long, long list of provisos, and several of them frankly shouldn't be necessary: the "DM as rest-police" requirement came about when they basically officially decided that 5MWD was a DM problem, while the "many 9th-level spells and some others are broken" problem came about due to what can only have been insufficient testing, a desire to hew closely to the broken pre-4e iconic spells, and the almost unavoidable vagaries of having a spell chapter that's like 5 times as long as all the other combat rules in the game put together. That said, if you either stop at level 16 or add some crazy broken martial-only feats and abilities to even things out at high levels, and if you take a red marker to the spell chapter, I still think things will work pretty well. Let's go through that list: 1. Faerie Fire is not a wizard spell. You've been pretty careful about not mixing things up here, but let's keep the class distinctions clear. For whatever reason, the "Fighter and Bard" thread turned into a "Wizard vs. Champion" thread, so let's stick with that comparison. (Which, we should remember, means that a chart similar to the OP's would result in a lot less "total health" for the wizard, since he doesn't get heal spells without special feats or multiclassing, and also has crappier armor.) 2. At level 1, Jump costs a very valuable spell slot, and it only lasts a minute, and it still will probably only give the wizard a jump distance of about 24-30 feat, about double that of the fighter. Meanwhile, the rest of the day the fighter can jump about twice as far as the wizard without spending any resources. Now, at higher levels this MIGHT be something to come back to, because a level 20 wizard will have enough preparation slots and level 1 spell slots that he can spend one on Jump if it seems potentially useful; however, by high levels the fighter's jump distance is 20-25 feet, depending on subclass, so by that time the spell barely pulls them ahead. I'd say this particular spell is actually pretty balanced. 3. Counterspell is great, but it's an even trade of your wizard's spell slots for the enemy spellcaster's. (Also, you can't get it until level 5.) If the enemy spell caster casts high-level spells than you can, you're very likely wasting a reaction and a spell slot, while if he starts casting level 1 or 2 spells, you're making a very inefficient resource trade. The Mage Slayer feat is way better (as it better be, since a feat is way more of an investment than a spell prepared). 4. Levitate may occasionally be useful against groups of melee-only enemies in an open area when you don't have to worry about the rest of the group, but that's a fairly limited circumstance. One goblin with a crossbow can screw you over pretty royally by breaking your concentration (or just shooting you until you die). 5. Fly has some of the same issues. It's especially poor for environmental obstacles, since (1) you're burning a pretty high-level slot, (2) you're only carrying yourself, and (3) a rogue or monk can probably do the same for free (or for 1 ki point), as can a fighter with good Athletics and some rope. That said, again, when you're level 20 you might not care about a level 3 slot. (Of course, at that point barbarians and sorcerers can fly for free.) 6. Fabricate is indeed stupid, at least the part about instantly crafting detailed stuff as long as you're proficient in the tools. Get rid of that last phrase and you're fine. (But also, I don't know why any fighter is manually crafting mundane armor for 300 days. Those are rules I'll be ignoring.) 7. I'd like to see some math on the undead skeletons out-damaging the fighter. Do you mean individually, or once you have a skeleton army? Because I'm really not that worried about skeleton armies. The situations where those are actually practical are pretty rare in a typical adventure scenario. 8. Fabricate again. 9. Why do you think you can cast cantrips through the wall? "Nothing can physically pass through," and I don't see an option for Forcecage-style gaps. 11. Contagion is poorly designed because it evades legendary resistances. Ugh. I'd rule that using a legendary resistance on your first Con save ends the spell. 12. True Polymorph is probably the worst-designed spell in the game. It seems like maybe they wrote the spell before they figured out what CR meant? Because surely they don't actually intend polymorph and true polymorph to be THREE TIMES as powerful as a druid's shapeshifting. And the permanency is just silly and broken. If I'm DMing, this spell can only become permanent on a form of CR2 or less, and it and polymorph are both limited to creatures of a CR=level/3 rounded down, just like druid shapeshifting. Honestly, I expect an official errata for this. [/QUOTE]
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