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Class Design: One Primary Attack Stat
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<blockquote data-quote="Doctor Proctor" data-source="post: 4592176" data-attributes="member: 78547"><p>I guess I'm just really not seeing the problem here...well, except for maybe with the Paladin, he's a bit odd (although Divine Challenge is largely to blame for that...)</p><p></p><p>Ranger: How is the Ranger weakened by being dual stat? You're not <em>supposed</em> to play hybrid Rangers, as evidenced by the fact that you pick either Two-Weapon or Archer style at character creation. If you're an archer, you can have an 8 STR and it doesn't really matter. With an At-Will like Nimble Strike, you can always shift away to make a ranged attack without provoking an OA. The only time they're at a disadvantage is for OA's, but then <em>all</em> the ranged classes are, because OA's are a melee thing (And with Martial Power, Ranger can actually do OA's with a bow now...).</p><p></p><p>Cleric: Again, not really seeing the problem here. The Attack powers are based off of Strength, while the ranged powers are based off of Wisdom. It's the same as the Ranger, in that they're two separate builds. Let's look at a sample of the powers up to Paragon, for example.</p><p></p><p>1 - You've got Righteous Brand and Priest's Shield (At-Will), Healing Strike and Wrathful Thunder (Encounter) and then Avenging Flame (Daily). All of these use STR and STR only...there are no secondary effects requiring either WIS or CHA.</p><p>2 - Divine Aid is only Utility here that uses a stat, and it uses CHA. Everything else is a static effect.</p><p>3 - Here you have Blazing Beacon and Split the Sky, both of which use STR and nothing else.</p><p>5 - Here it gets odd... Rune of Peace uses STR, Consecrated Ground uses CHA (which is a secondary stat) and Weapon of the Gods has no stat. </p><p>6 - Again, we have only one Utility needing an ability score, and that's CHA for Bastion of Health.</p><p>7 - Awe Strike and Strengthen the Faithful both use STR as the attack stat, while StF uses CHA as part of an effect of the power.</p><p>9 - Divine Power uses STR as the attack stat, and nothing else. Blade Barrier technically uses Wisdom, but only as a damage bonus, not an attack stat.</p><p>10 - As before, there's only one Utility here that uses a stat, and that's Mass Cure Light Wounds with CHA again.</p><p></p><p>So, out of the first 10 levels you have a choice at <em>every level</em> that doesn't go anywhere near Wisdom. Blade Barrier uses Wisdom, but since it's only for damage it's a perfectly viable for a Melee Cleric with a low Wisdom score, as he's just be missing some damage.</p><p></p><p>So where is this is MAD problem? Other than say, Turn Undead, there's nothing that you're forced to take so far that uses the WIS attribute. Sure, Turn Undead is useful, but there's many Channel Divinity powers, and that's just one. If you were a follower of the Raven Queen you might have Raven's Queen Blessing and use that every turn instead, since it increases your healing ability. So, at least for the first 10 levels, it's perfectly feasible for a STR Cleric to get along with nothing but STR and CHA and some heavy armor.</p><p></p><p>Granted, your power choices are limited and you <em>every</em> power won't be an ideal choice, but every class has that issue. A STR/CON Fighter using an Axe probably won't take Rain of Blows because he won't get the benefit out of it. He also probably won't take the Swordmaster PP because he won't get the benefit. All builds have certain "ideal powers" that compliment the build, the Cleric is no different...they're just more extreme because it's the <em>primary</em> stat that makes the choice less convenient, rather than a secondary stat or weapon choice.</p><p></p><p>For the sake of space, I won't do the same thing with the Paladin. Suffice it to say, the major issue with the Paladin is Divine Challenge. It never should've used Wisdom to figure out the damage. Divine Challenge is their "sticky" mechanic that keeps enemies focused on them. It needs to be a threat in order to do so, and having a 10 in CHA doesn't make it much of a threat...then all an enemy has to deal with is the -2 to hit from the mark.</p><p></p><p>This is further compounded by their limited healing ability having it's number of uses per day based on their WIS score. It's common to see STR/CHA Paladins that dumped WIS in order to maximize their DC damage. This is a problem, and should probably be fixed in some way. Perhaps DC could let you add WIS instead of CHA? Then it's relying on a secondary stat for the class, instead of a primary for one build.</p><p></p><p>On a side note, classes that are dual statted also make for good multiclass options. Clerics and Paladins MC well together, as does Fighter and Cleric or Paladin and Fighter. You can even toss Ranger into the mix. Even an Archer Ranger with a good WIS score can get some mileage out of the Laser Cleric powers. Rogues though? Not so much. Or Wizards? They're single stat classes, and as such you need to have a compelling reason to invest in their attack stat. Particular builds of the Fighter use DEX, but not all...or even most I would say. The Wizard suffers a similar issue. Sure, the Warlord can MC Wizard pretty good, but that's because they share a stat. Other classes though? Much harder...because if you're good at INT, then you won't be a good Wizard. Period.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Doctor Proctor, post: 4592176, member: 78547"] I guess I'm just really not seeing the problem here...well, except for maybe with the Paladin, he's a bit odd (although Divine Challenge is largely to blame for that...) Ranger: How is the Ranger weakened by being dual stat? You're not [I]supposed[/I] to play hybrid Rangers, as evidenced by the fact that you pick either Two-Weapon or Archer style at character creation. If you're an archer, you can have an 8 STR and it doesn't really matter. With an At-Will like Nimble Strike, you can always shift away to make a ranged attack without provoking an OA. The only time they're at a disadvantage is for OA's, but then [I]all[/I] the ranged classes are, because OA's are a melee thing (And with Martial Power, Ranger can actually do OA's with a bow now...). Cleric: Again, not really seeing the problem here. The Attack powers are based off of Strength, while the ranged powers are based off of Wisdom. It's the same as the Ranger, in that they're two separate builds. Let's look at a sample of the powers up to Paragon, for example. 1 - You've got Righteous Brand and Priest's Shield (At-Will), Healing Strike and Wrathful Thunder (Encounter) and then Avenging Flame (Daily). All of these use STR and STR only...there are no secondary effects requiring either WIS or CHA. 2 - Divine Aid is only Utility here that uses a stat, and it uses CHA. Everything else is a static effect. 3 - Here you have Blazing Beacon and Split the Sky, both of which use STR and nothing else. 5 - Here it gets odd... Rune of Peace uses STR, Consecrated Ground uses CHA (which is a secondary stat) and Weapon of the Gods has no stat. 6 - Again, we have only one Utility needing an ability score, and that's CHA for Bastion of Health. 7 - Awe Strike and Strengthen the Faithful both use STR as the attack stat, while StF uses CHA as part of an effect of the power. 9 - Divine Power uses STR as the attack stat, and nothing else. Blade Barrier technically uses Wisdom, but only as a damage bonus, not an attack stat. 10 - As before, there's only one Utility here that uses a stat, and that's Mass Cure Light Wounds with CHA again. So, out of the first 10 levels you have a choice at [I]every level[/I] that doesn't go anywhere near Wisdom. Blade Barrier uses Wisdom, but since it's only for damage it's a perfectly viable for a Melee Cleric with a low Wisdom score, as he's just be missing some damage. So where is this is MAD problem? Other than say, Turn Undead, there's nothing that you're forced to take so far that uses the WIS attribute. Sure, Turn Undead is useful, but there's many Channel Divinity powers, and that's just one. If you were a follower of the Raven Queen you might have Raven's Queen Blessing and use that every turn instead, since it increases your healing ability. So, at least for the first 10 levels, it's perfectly feasible for a STR Cleric to get along with nothing but STR and CHA and some heavy armor. Granted, your power choices are limited and you [I]every[/I] power won't be an ideal choice, but every class has that issue. A STR/CON Fighter using an Axe probably won't take Rain of Blows because he won't get the benefit out of it. He also probably won't take the Swordmaster PP because he won't get the benefit. All builds have certain "ideal powers" that compliment the build, the Cleric is no different...they're just more extreme because it's the [I]primary[/I] stat that makes the choice less convenient, rather than a secondary stat or weapon choice. For the sake of space, I won't do the same thing with the Paladin. Suffice it to say, the major issue with the Paladin is Divine Challenge. It never should've used Wisdom to figure out the damage. Divine Challenge is their "sticky" mechanic that keeps enemies focused on them. It needs to be a threat in order to do so, and having a 10 in CHA doesn't make it much of a threat...then all an enemy has to deal with is the -2 to hit from the mark. This is further compounded by their limited healing ability having it's number of uses per day based on their WIS score. It's common to see STR/CHA Paladins that dumped WIS in order to maximize their DC damage. This is a problem, and should probably be fixed in some way. Perhaps DC could let you add WIS instead of CHA? Then it's relying on a secondary stat for the class, instead of a primary for one build. On a side note, classes that are dual statted also make for good multiclass options. Clerics and Paladins MC well together, as does Fighter and Cleric or Paladin and Fighter. You can even toss Ranger into the mix. Even an Archer Ranger with a good WIS score can get some mileage out of the Laser Cleric powers. Rogues though? Not so much. Or Wizards? They're single stat classes, and as such you need to have a compelling reason to invest in their attack stat. Particular builds of the Fighter use DEX, but not all...or even most I would say. The Wizard suffers a similar issue. Sure, the Warlord can MC Wizard pretty good, but that's because they share a stat. Other classes though? Much harder...because if you're good at INT, then you won't be a good Wizard. Period. [/QUOTE]
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