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Combat as war, sport, or ??
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8827525" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Considering I dislike the fundamental argument in its entirety--it is both reductive <em>and</em> unhelpful, insulting <em>and</em> muddling--the fact that they (and you) seem to think that 5e fails to go either way would in fact be excellent reason to <strong>ditch the framework entirely.</strong></p><p></p><p>However, to make this more than just a threadcrap, I will try to take the fundamental premise seriously, at least for a bit. I grant that 5e combat isn't either of these things (albeit for reasons other than what the video creators probably intended.) It's also not spectacle, because spectacle IS the point of 4e combats; that's why literally everyone, fans and haters alike, refers to them as "set-piece" battles. It's not tactics nor strategy, because 5e has flattened the tactical side of things to almost nothing, and flattened the spectrum of items and interactions that could produce strategic advantage. It's further not combat-as-puzzle, nor combat-as-performance because so many fights are either grinds against piles of squishy nobody mooks, or single fat-sack-of-HP bosses against which there's little of interest to do <em>other than</em> Moar Damage.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps Combat as Obstacle? It's a thing to get past. It's a weirdly hyper-focused "thing to get past," since 5e's rules for anything that <em>isn't</em> combat are either <em>the spell list</em>, or barely enough to fill a single chapter. But...I'm honestly not sure what else to call it.</p><p></p><p>And, as I said, that's why I think this is excellent evidence that the "Combat-as-X" model is fundamentally flawed to an extent that it should simply be abandoned. It doesn't actually give information about the game. It basically only says things about <em>the speaker</em>. It's a jersey color, a political party slogan, and nothing more. It may be aspiring to something more and better, it may be trying to say something productive and meaningful about game design, user experience, etc. But it genuinely fails to actually DO that. All it does, in the vast majority of cases, is tell other people which team's cheerios you believe deserve to be pissed in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8827525, member: 6790260"] Considering I dislike the fundamental argument in its entirety--it is both reductive [I]and[/I] unhelpful, insulting [I]and[/I] muddling--the fact that they (and you) seem to think that 5e fails to go either way would in fact be excellent reason to [B]ditch the framework entirely.[/B] However, to make this more than just a threadcrap, I will try to take the fundamental premise seriously, at least for a bit. I grant that 5e combat isn't either of these things (albeit for reasons other than what the video creators probably intended.) It's also not spectacle, because spectacle IS the point of 4e combats; that's why literally everyone, fans and haters alike, refers to them as "set-piece" battles. It's not tactics nor strategy, because 5e has flattened the tactical side of things to almost nothing, and flattened the spectrum of items and interactions that could produce strategic advantage. It's further not combat-as-puzzle, nor combat-as-performance because so many fights are either grinds against piles of squishy nobody mooks, or single fat-sack-of-HP bosses against which there's little of interest to do [I]other than[/I] Moar Damage. Perhaps Combat as Obstacle? It's a thing to get past. It's a weirdly hyper-focused "thing to get past," since 5e's rules for anything that [I]isn't[/I] combat are either [I]the spell list[/I], or barely enough to fill a single chapter. But...I'm honestly not sure what else to call it. And, as I said, that's why I think this is excellent evidence that the "Combat-as-X" model is fundamentally flawed to an extent that it should simply be abandoned. It doesn't actually give information about the game. It basically only says things about [I]the speaker[/I]. It's a jersey color, a political party slogan, and nothing more. It may be aspiring to something more and better, it may be trying to say something productive and meaningful about game design, user experience, etc. But it genuinely fails to actually DO that. All it does, in the vast majority of cases, is tell other people which team's cheerios you believe deserve to be pissed in. [/QUOTE]
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