Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Consequence and Reward in RPGs
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7716324" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>It seems to me that there are two issues here, related but separate.</p><p></p><p>1. The historical argument that gaming has changed. That might be true, but, the changes are hardly new. We saw all sorts of more story driven games coming out almost from day one. I mean, you have things like Empire of the Petal Throne, which is damn near as old as RPG's, where the point of play wasn't so much about challenge, but about exploration and interaction with the setting. While EPT was based on the OD&D ruleset, it approached play very differently.</p><p></p><p>As [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] said, how can these be considered changes to how gaming is done when these changes are as old as the hobby?</p><p></p><p>It's kinda like the old argument about how D&D used to be all about the mega-dungeon. Fair enough if all you read was the AD&D DMG. Obviously the mega dungeon campaign was a pretty standard way to play. Only thing is, as soon as you widen your scope a bit, mega-dungeon play wasn't the only game in town. All you have to do is look at the modules. The mega-dungeon is the exception, not the rule when you look at modules. Even looking at something like the shift from Basic to Expert D&D, we see that the dungeon is no longer the focus of play - Expert rules and more importantly the Isle of Dread, showcase play that is almost completely divorced from dungeon crawling. </p><p></p><p>2. The argument that challenge necessarily means "earning" rewards. Thing is, that's so subjective that it's virtually meaningless. What does that even mean? It presumes that the only rewards that are involved in play are the in-game rewards for your character, which in D&D means treasure and XP. Thing is, the issue with "Monte Haul" campaigns isn't so much about not earning the rewards, but that it futzes so badly with game balance. If everyone is hauling around a +5 sword, it makes adventure design so much more difficult.</p><p></p><p>I remember an anecdote by Gygax in Dragon talking about how one of the players had a Vorpal Sword. The issue wasn't one of Monte Haul, but, that the sword was too powerful and it made encounters too easy. So, he maneuvered a way into the game to get rid of the sword. Not because the player hadn't "earned" it.</p><p> [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION]' notion that "earning it" only means having a high risk of PC death is simply mired in an approach to the game that I don't particularly share. For me, "earning it" means that you've played the game in such a way that everyone at the table has had a great time. Whoopee, you rolled a high enough Save Vs Poison on that trapped chest so you "earned" your magic sword for getting lucky and rolling high on a d20? How is that "earning" anything? It's like the old rules for bonus Xp for high stats. Has absolutely nothing with earning anything. You just got 10% more XP than the guy beside you because you managed to roll higher on your stats? What did you do to earn that 10% XP? </p><p></p><p>Sorry, but, rewards in games should be for smart and entertaining play that makes the table a better place to be. Rewarding someone simply for getting lucky is just gambling. And I'd rather gamble if that's what we're going to do. Rolling this back around to war-games, I MUCH prefer my war-games that minimize randomness. Sure, Risk or Axis and Allies can be tons of fun, or, like one A&A game I played, Germany falls in the second turn because the player couldn't roll above a 2, no matter how many times he rolled. Yay, great game everyone. Sorry, I'll take things with a little less random chance and a lot more thinking thanks. There's a reason that Euro-games have completely dominated board games for the past twenty years or so. Far less winning through random blind luck and a lot more actual thinking and planning.</p><p></p><p>I'll stick to games that reward thinking and planning thanks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7716324, member: 22779"] It seems to me that there are two issues here, related but separate. 1. The historical argument that gaming has changed. That might be true, but, the changes are hardly new. We saw all sorts of more story driven games coming out almost from day one. I mean, you have things like Empire of the Petal Throne, which is damn near as old as RPG's, where the point of play wasn't so much about challenge, but about exploration and interaction with the setting. While EPT was based on the OD&D ruleset, it approached play very differently. As [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] said, how can these be considered changes to how gaming is done when these changes are as old as the hobby? It's kinda like the old argument about how D&D used to be all about the mega-dungeon. Fair enough if all you read was the AD&D DMG. Obviously the mega dungeon campaign was a pretty standard way to play. Only thing is, as soon as you widen your scope a bit, mega-dungeon play wasn't the only game in town. All you have to do is look at the modules. The mega-dungeon is the exception, not the rule when you look at modules. Even looking at something like the shift from Basic to Expert D&D, we see that the dungeon is no longer the focus of play - Expert rules and more importantly the Isle of Dread, showcase play that is almost completely divorced from dungeon crawling. 2. The argument that challenge necessarily means "earning" rewards. Thing is, that's so subjective that it's virtually meaningless. What does that even mean? It presumes that the only rewards that are involved in play are the in-game rewards for your character, which in D&D means treasure and XP. Thing is, the issue with "Monte Haul" campaigns isn't so much about not earning the rewards, but that it futzes so badly with game balance. If everyone is hauling around a +5 sword, it makes adventure design so much more difficult. I remember an anecdote by Gygax in Dragon talking about how one of the players had a Vorpal Sword. The issue wasn't one of Monte Haul, but, that the sword was too powerful and it made encounters too easy. So, he maneuvered a way into the game to get rid of the sword. Not because the player hadn't "earned" it. [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION]' notion that "earning it" only means having a high risk of PC death is simply mired in an approach to the game that I don't particularly share. For me, "earning it" means that you've played the game in such a way that everyone at the table has had a great time. Whoopee, you rolled a high enough Save Vs Poison on that trapped chest so you "earned" your magic sword for getting lucky and rolling high on a d20? How is that "earning" anything? It's like the old rules for bonus Xp for high stats. Has absolutely nothing with earning anything. You just got 10% more XP than the guy beside you because you managed to roll higher on your stats? What did you do to earn that 10% XP? Sorry, but, rewards in games should be for smart and entertaining play that makes the table a better place to be. Rewarding someone simply for getting lucky is just gambling. And I'd rather gamble if that's what we're going to do. Rolling this back around to war-games, I MUCH prefer my war-games that minimize randomness. Sure, Risk or Axis and Allies can be tons of fun, or, like one A&A game I played, Germany falls in the second turn because the player couldn't roll above a 2, no matter how many times he rolled. Yay, great game everyone. Sorry, I'll take things with a little less random chance and a lot more thinking thanks. There's a reason that Euro-games have completely dominated board games for the past twenty years or so. Far less winning through random blind luck and a lot more actual thinking and planning. I'll stick to games that reward thinking and planning thanks. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Consequence and Reward in RPGs
Top