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Consequence and Reward in RPGs
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<blockquote data-quote="Shayuri" data-source="post: 7716405" data-attributes="member: 4936"><p>Reading the thread, and using it as a frame to think about my own history gaming (not as long as some of y'all, but not exactly short either), I kind of get the sense that RPGs are working as intended. That is, we have a lot of different experiences because we've been playing different games. I don't think that the experience of consequence or reward is something that arises from a specific system. Not really.</p><p></p><p>It comes from your GM, and from the pressure of the group's consensus...expressed or silent. I've played a lot of different systems. A lot. But I've only had maybe five or six groups that I regularly play with, and many of them have been very stable over time. What I've observed is that we find a pattern of plot-vs-random, reward-vs-consequence that suits us rather early on...and then just stick with that. I haven't seen 3e to be any more or less forgiving than 4e, or 5e or World of Darkness, or GURPS, or Mutants & Masterminds, or BESM or...etc etc etc. Because it's all just us. We're doing it, not the rules.</p><p></p><p>I'm reluctant to wade into the whole 'which is better' subdiscussion, because this fits solidly into my idea of a 'hey, you do you' topic. There's nothing innately better about people struggling to survive against a merciless demon-GM and the vicissitudes of cruel dice as compared to people working together to craft a deep and involving story with richly detailed and developed characters who are offered a degree of protection from deletion from the story by plot armor. It's okay to say, 'this story is too good the way it's going to let a bad roll just steal it away from us.' It's also okay to say, 'victory means nothing without blood and sweat and the gnashing of teeth.'</p><p></p><p>Every game I've ever played finds a balance between those extremes, and I suspect the same is true for other gamers. Where that course is plotted defines our different groups and our different games, and that's a really good thing. Not a thing we should be arguing about, or belittling one another for. It's what makes Story Hours awesome to read...here are games that are <em>totally different</em> than the games I've played. I may never play a game like that, and honestly...I might not even LIKE a game like that. But it's a blast to read about. Or talk about. </p><p></p><p>I will say though that if there's a sense that RPGs are moving 'towards' games of reward and 'away' from games of consequence, that sense may arise from the quintessential bugaboo of human perception. All perception is relative.</p><p></p><p>RPGs developed from wargames. In a wargame, there's rarely a 'story' and the 'characters' are just pieces on a board. They may only have a few stats, and are likely to be functionally identical to any other 'character' of the same type. The players are eyes in the sky, and the emotional commitment is generally to the game as a whole...not to Pawn 18, who's untimely demise was a momentary annoyance in your grand strategy.</p><p></p><p>RPGs moved the focus. Players went from commanding armies or units to commanding one person. But there was still a sense of remove, I think. The scenarios tended to be 'characters appear at a dungeon from *a town* and go room to room fighting things.' In short, they were still wargames in many cases, just games of tactics rather than of strategy.</p><p></p><p>The movement away from pure tactical 'encounter sims' towards a more narrative, story-based game IS ongoing, in the same sense that the universe continues to expand in the aftermath of the Big Bang. Those of us who played 1st Edition D&D can see that change. Go back farther though, and find a Warhammer player scoffing at you because you 'need loot to play.' </p><p></p><p>The good news is that each iteration of gaming doesn't replace the old. We can each have the game we want. That can't be a bad thing, right? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>So! Good discussion, everyone. Trophies all around? (^_^)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Shayuri, post: 7716405, member: 4936"] Reading the thread, and using it as a frame to think about my own history gaming (not as long as some of y'all, but not exactly short either), I kind of get the sense that RPGs are working as intended. That is, we have a lot of different experiences because we've been playing different games. I don't think that the experience of consequence or reward is something that arises from a specific system. Not really. It comes from your GM, and from the pressure of the group's consensus...expressed or silent. I've played a lot of different systems. A lot. But I've only had maybe five or six groups that I regularly play with, and many of them have been very stable over time. What I've observed is that we find a pattern of plot-vs-random, reward-vs-consequence that suits us rather early on...and then just stick with that. I haven't seen 3e to be any more or less forgiving than 4e, or 5e or World of Darkness, or GURPS, or Mutants & Masterminds, or BESM or...etc etc etc. Because it's all just us. We're doing it, not the rules. I'm reluctant to wade into the whole 'which is better' subdiscussion, because this fits solidly into my idea of a 'hey, you do you' topic. There's nothing innately better about people struggling to survive against a merciless demon-GM and the vicissitudes of cruel dice as compared to people working together to craft a deep and involving story with richly detailed and developed characters who are offered a degree of protection from deletion from the story by plot armor. It's okay to say, 'this story is too good the way it's going to let a bad roll just steal it away from us.' It's also okay to say, 'victory means nothing without blood and sweat and the gnashing of teeth.' Every game I've ever played finds a balance between those extremes, and I suspect the same is true for other gamers. Where that course is plotted defines our different groups and our different games, and that's a really good thing. Not a thing we should be arguing about, or belittling one another for. It's what makes Story Hours awesome to read...here are games that are [I]totally different[/I] than the games I've played. I may never play a game like that, and honestly...I might not even LIKE a game like that. But it's a blast to read about. Or talk about. I will say though that if there's a sense that RPGs are moving 'towards' games of reward and 'away' from games of consequence, that sense may arise from the quintessential bugaboo of human perception. All perception is relative. RPGs developed from wargames. In a wargame, there's rarely a 'story' and the 'characters' are just pieces on a board. They may only have a few stats, and are likely to be functionally identical to any other 'character' of the same type. The players are eyes in the sky, and the emotional commitment is generally to the game as a whole...not to Pawn 18, who's untimely demise was a momentary annoyance in your grand strategy. RPGs moved the focus. Players went from commanding armies or units to commanding one person. But there was still a sense of remove, I think. The scenarios tended to be 'characters appear at a dungeon from *a town* and go room to room fighting things.' In short, they were still wargames in many cases, just games of tactics rather than of strategy. The movement away from pure tactical 'encounter sims' towards a more narrative, story-based game IS ongoing, in the same sense that the universe continues to expand in the aftermath of the Big Bang. Those of us who played 1st Edition D&D can see that change. Go back farther though, and find a Warhammer player scoffing at you because you 'need loot to play.' The good news is that each iteration of gaming doesn't replace the old. We can each have the game we want. That can't be a bad thing, right? :) So! Good discussion, everyone. Trophies all around? (^_^) [/QUOTE]
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