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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7716588" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The contention is that classic D&D play of the Pulsipherian/Gygaxian sort involved <em>avoiding</em> dice rolls by, instead, making your own luck - mostly through clever exploitation of fictional positioning.</p><p></p><p>Other than the OP, [MENTION=6688858]Libramarian[/MENTION] is the main proponent of this approach to play in the current thread. Luke Crane describes the phenomenon with clarity and a high degree of anaylitical rigour <a href="https://plus.google.com/+lukecrane/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5" target="_blank">here</a>. Here are some choice extracts:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I've learned that it's a hard game to run. Not because of prep or rules mastery, but because of the role of the GM as impartial conveyer of really bad news. Since the exploration side of the game is cross between Telephone and Pictionary, I must sit impassive as the players make bad decisions. I want them to win. I want them to solve the puzzles, but if I interfere, I render the whole exercise pointless. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The players' sense of accomplishment is enormous. They went through hell and death to survive long enough to level. They have their own stories about how certain scenarios played out. They developed their own clever strategems to solve the puzzles and defeat the opposition. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">This game . . . is built to explore dungeons. As soon it moves away from puzzle-solving and exploration, the experience starts to fray. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">This game is hard. It demands focus and discipline beyond even what Burning Wheel asks of you. It is unflinchingly deadly. Between six players, we lost 13 characters in 12 sessions. And that doesn't include archers, men-at-arms and torch-bearers. Such a death toll is unheard of in contemporary games. My girlfriend plays 4e. In 12 months, not a single character has died. These are two different games. And this game does not cater to our modern sensibilities. And that is why we bowed our heads to it. It seemed deceptively simple, and almost friendly. But truly it is a harsh master, laying the lash across our backs as we map, call, fail our saves and get swarmed and killed by kobolds.</p><p></p><p>And here is how a player in Luke Crane's Moldvay Basic game describes it, in the same thread:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I just accepted the world for what it is, and accepted that if I want to live, I have to play according to those terms. I had to not be the person who just plows right ahead into any fight that comes at me (okay, maybe I still do that sometimes) and so learning how to work within the constraints of the game itself has become the real pleasure.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Picking up a +2 spear from a dead companion, and learning how to attack with it from a distance without endangering myself. Watching our group strategically burn and firebomb the living hell out of anything that moves before they can get close to us. Chugging invisibility potions to safely scout out caves thick with Bugbears. Setting traps for zombie hordes. Taking out bosses with nary a scratch to any of us. I can feel myself learning a skill set. I can watch our little ragtag band of would-be heroes (or gold-hungry mercenaries, rather) getting better and better at what we do.</p><p></p><p>I believe that this playstyle existed, and continues to exist, as a real thing. And I also think that some early versions of the game (with Moldvay Basic probably the high point) were especially adept at supporting it.</p><p></p><p>But I also think that, of all those people who bought and played original D&D, Moldvay Basic and AD&D, only some fraction (and, over the years from - say - the mid-70s to the mid-80s, a declining fraction) actually used those games to play in this style.</p><p></p><p>EDIT to add: just for the sake of clarity, the sort of RPGing that Luke Crane and his player are describing is something that I'm not very good at, mostly because - both as player and GM - I lack the patience.</p><p></p><p>My interest in this thread isn't to defend my favoured style. Nor to defend any claim about the moral failings of younger generations. It's to agree that (i) there are different approaches to RPGing, and (ii) different systems suit different approaches, and (iii) some of these different systems have flourished at different times in the history of RPG publishing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7716588, member: 42582"] The contention is that classic D&D play of the Pulsipherian/Gygaxian sort involved [I]avoiding[/I] dice rolls by, instead, making your own luck - mostly through clever exploitation of fictional positioning. Other than the OP, [MENTION=6688858]Libramarian[/MENTION] is the main proponent of this approach to play in the current thread. Luke Crane describes the phenomenon with clarity and a high degree of anaylitical rigour [url=https://plus.google.com/+lukecrane/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5]here[/url]. Here are some choice extracts: [indent]I've learned that it's a hard game to run. Not because of prep or rules mastery, but because of the role of the GM as impartial conveyer of really bad news. Since the exploration side of the game is cross between Telephone and Pictionary, I must sit impassive as the players make bad decisions. I want them to win. I want them to solve the puzzles, but if I interfere, I render the whole exercise pointless. . . . The players' sense of accomplishment is enormous. They went through hell and death to survive long enough to level. They have their own stories about how certain scenarios played out. They developed their own clever strategems to solve the puzzles and defeat the opposition. . . . This game . . . is built to explore dungeons. As soon it moves away from puzzle-solving and exploration, the experience starts to fray. . . . This game is hard. It demands focus and discipline beyond even what Burning Wheel asks of you. It is unflinchingly deadly. Between six players, we lost 13 characters in 12 sessions. And that doesn't include archers, men-at-arms and torch-bearers. Such a death toll is unheard of in contemporary games. My girlfriend plays 4e. In 12 months, not a single character has died. These are two different games. And this game does not cater to our modern sensibilities. And that is why we bowed our heads to it. It seemed deceptively simple, and almost friendly. But truly it is a harsh master, laying the lash across our backs as we map, call, fail our saves and get swarmed and killed by kobolds.[/indent] And here is how a player in Luke Crane's Moldvay Basic game describes it, in the same thread: [indent]I just accepted the world for what it is, and accepted that if I want to live, I have to play according to those terms. I had to not be the person who just plows right ahead into any fight that comes at me (okay, maybe I still do that sometimes) and so learning how to work within the constraints of the game itself has become the real pleasure. Picking up a +2 spear from a dead companion, and learning how to attack with it from a distance without endangering myself. Watching our group strategically burn and firebomb the living hell out of anything that moves before they can get close to us. Chugging invisibility potions to safely scout out caves thick with Bugbears. Setting traps for zombie hordes. Taking out bosses with nary a scratch to any of us. I can feel myself learning a skill set. I can watch our little ragtag band of would-be heroes (or gold-hungry mercenaries, rather) getting better and better at what we do.[/indent] I believe that this playstyle existed, and continues to exist, as a real thing. And I also think that some early versions of the game (with Moldvay Basic probably the high point) were especially adept at supporting it. But I also think that, of all those people who bought and played original D&D, Moldvay Basic and AD&D, only some fraction (and, over the years from - say - the mid-70s to the mid-80s, a declining fraction) actually used those games to play in this style. EDIT to add: just for the sake of clarity, the sort of RPGing that Luke Crane and his player are describing is something that I'm not very good at, mostly because - both as player and GM - I lack the patience. My interest in this thread isn't to defend my favoured style. Nor to defend any claim about the moral failings of younger generations. It's to agree that (i) there are different approaches to RPGing, and (ii) different systems suit different approaches, and (iii) some of these different systems have flourished at different times in the history of RPG publishing. [/QUOTE]
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