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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Herschel" data-source="post: 5958756" data-attributes="member: 78357"><p>Actually, it does. If you're not buying, you're not their customer. Adding you to their base is the goal while maintaining their current customer base.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Then either you found the way to build a terrible character, your DM didn't run the challenge properly or you only wanted characters with the highest skills to make the checks and tried to sit out. There's no need to have a skill maxed just to take part, the DCs aren't that high. That's on you, not the system.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Warlocks are secondary controllers, and Star'Locks especially can be built with a lot of control, just as Genasi or Tiefling Wizards can be built as good blasters. A Warlock tailored for control can out-control a poorly-built to randomly-built Wizard. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Again, this comes from the way you build your character. Outside of the way-too-narrow Fighter skill list (and backgrounds and themes can even alleviate this) not having applcable skills often is either a poor choice on your part or lack of DM skill in designing/running challenges. Again, you don't need to just train skills applicable to your highest stats. Doing so just limits you and there's no need. When possible, I choose a physical skill, knowledge skill and a social skill for a well-rounded character. So my Swordmage, for example, has training in Arcana (automatic for class) and History (knowledge/INT), Athletics (physical/STR) and Insight (social/WIS). I don't have high stats in all three by any stretch (WIS is a quaternary for WILL defense but behind INT, STR, CON) yet I'm still easily able to contribute in social settings where skills are needed outside of just conversing.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>It should never take you hours to pick new options, though the feat list is getting rather large. With retraining, if something doesn't work the way you thought it would or as well as you like, you aren't stuck with it forever, you simply retrain it next level.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Talk about pet peeves, you don't have to push the enemy if you don't want, it's just an option. Please try having an actual understanding of the way it works before saying it's bad because you're simply wrong in this case. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>There are a number of issues with this point. </p><p>1. In history it was armies that lined up on open battlefields, not small groups of skirmishers. And quite frankly, lining up on an open battlefield is a galactically stupid way to fight for at least one side. You're going to lose a quarter minimum of your forces. Is D&D more fun if at least one character dies every combat? </p><p> </p><p>Terrain is your friend and skirmishing groups use it. That's why guerilla tactics are used so often, because a wily force using the environment can take on superior numbers or even firepower. Are monsters and brigands not going to want defensible lairs and positions? How did they live this long of not?</p><p> </p><p>2. As far a features in lairs, etc. hmm, I see a desk, chair, bed, bookshelves and TV/stand from where I'm sitting and these partitions. I like to sit down, maybe even lay down, and have some places to set my stuff. I go into another room, hey look, more terrain, a sofa, love seat, end tables, drum set, sound system...hey what's that room over there, a toilet, shower, sink, around another door and there's a furnace, washer, dryer, sink, water softener.....and upstairs, oo all sorts of things, another sofa, two easy chairs and look a bunch of stuff that creates cold (fridge, freezer) and heat (cook top, oven, toaster, microwave) and another water source.....hey, a couple more of those sleeping-type areas, and office and another room with toilet, sink and even a water reservoir (tub).</p><p> </p><p>I go to friends' houses, they have this stuff all over too, and so do my neighbors. Huh, apparently they like to sit down, have places to put their stuff and sleep too. </p><p> </p><p>3. Ever been spelunking? Caves aren't just big, open caverns and monsters aren't going to just choose those either. See reasons above. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yep, we can improvise and we also have all these cool things that are not only part of our repertoire not only to do, but also as a comparative baseline for the DM to adjudicate our improvisation against. Pretty sweet. Your last point is simply a misguided edition troll and I'll leave it at that. </p><p> </p><p> Again, you show a complete lack of ...understanding (?) of the point in question. If you use the standard Character Builder layout, your powers and maneuvers are listed in the power card format. It's a nice layout and if you want to cut them out for organization you can. You can also just list out the powers with their effects on lines that don't take up the extra space so everything fits on one page. I know a number or people who do this. The e-tools don't support this but that's simply a layout option WotC has not chosen to have added to their e-tools."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Herschel, post: 5958756, member: 78357"] Actually, it does. If you're not buying, you're not their customer. Adding you to their base is the goal while maintaining their current customer base. Then either you found the way to build a terrible character, your DM didn't run the challenge properly or you only wanted characters with the highest skills to make the checks and tried to sit out. There's no need to have a skill maxed just to take part, the DCs aren't that high. That's on you, not the system. Warlocks are secondary controllers, and Star'Locks especially can be built with a lot of control, just as Genasi or Tiefling Wizards can be built as good blasters. A Warlock tailored for control can out-control a poorly-built to randomly-built Wizard. Again, this comes from the way you build your character. Outside of the way-too-narrow Fighter skill list (and backgrounds and themes can even alleviate this) not having applcable skills often is either a poor choice on your part or lack of DM skill in designing/running challenges. Again, you don't need to just train skills applicable to your highest stats. Doing so just limits you and there's no need. When possible, I choose a physical skill, knowledge skill and a social skill for a well-rounded character. So my Swordmage, for example, has training in Arcana (automatic for class) and History (knowledge/INT), Athletics (physical/STR) and Insight (social/WIS). I don't have high stats in all three by any stretch (WIS is a quaternary for WILL defense but behind INT, STR, CON) yet I'm still easily able to contribute in social settings where skills are needed outside of just conversing. It should never take you hours to pick new options, though the feat list is getting rather large. With retraining, if something doesn't work the way you thought it would or as well as you like, you aren't stuck with it forever, you simply retrain it next level. Talk about pet peeves, you don't have to push the enemy if you don't want, it's just an option. Please try having an actual understanding of the way it works before saying it's bad because you're simply wrong in this case. There are a number of issues with this point. 1. In history it was armies that lined up on open battlefields, not small groups of skirmishers. And quite frankly, lining up on an open battlefield is a galactically stupid way to fight for at least one side. You're going to lose a quarter minimum of your forces. Is D&D more fun if at least one character dies every combat? Terrain is your friend and skirmishing groups use it. That's why guerilla tactics are used so often, because a wily force using the environment can take on superior numbers or even firepower. Are monsters and brigands not going to want defensible lairs and positions? How did they live this long of not? 2. As far a features in lairs, etc. hmm, I see a desk, chair, bed, bookshelves and TV/stand from where I'm sitting and these partitions. I like to sit down, maybe even lay down, and have some places to set my stuff. I go into another room, hey look, more terrain, a sofa, love seat, end tables, drum set, sound system...hey what's that room over there, a toilet, shower, sink, around another door and there's a furnace, washer, dryer, sink, water softener.....and upstairs, oo all sorts of things, another sofa, two easy chairs and look a bunch of stuff that creates cold (fridge, freezer) and heat (cook top, oven, toaster, microwave) and another water source.....hey, a couple more of those sleeping-type areas, and office and another room with toilet, sink and even a water reservoir (tub). I go to friends' houses, they have this stuff all over too, and so do my neighbors. Huh, apparently they like to sit down, have places to put their stuff and sleep too. 3. Ever been spelunking? Caves aren't just big, open caverns and monsters aren't going to just choose those either. See reasons above. Yep, we can improvise and we also have all these cool things that are not only part of our repertoire not only to do, but also as a comparative baseline for the DM to adjudicate our improvisation against. Pretty sweet. Your last point is simply a misguided edition troll and I'll leave it at that. Again, you show a complete lack of ...understanding (?) of the point in question. If you use the standard Character Builder layout, your powers and maneuvers are listed in the power card format. It's a nice layout and if you want to cut them out for organization you can. You can also just list out the powers with their effects on lines that don't take up the extra space so everything fits on one page. I know a number or people who do this. The e-tools don't support this but that's simply a layout option WotC has not chosen to have added to their e-tools." [/QUOTE]
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