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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 5958766" data-attributes="member: 40961"><p>Two hypothetical games:</p><p></p><p>Game A:</p><p>In Game A, all classes can contribute reasonably well in all situations. They contribute in slightly different ways, perhaps, but they all contribute. Now sometimes the way they contribute starts getting a bit similar. For example, a fighter and a rogue both contribute to fights by stabbing things in slightly different ways.</p><p></p><p>Game B: Not all characters contribute equally in all situations. For example, there is a class that is the best at fighting. There is another class that has more non-combat skills than anyone else. There's a class who's whole shtick is that he's got spells that are better than anything anyone else does, but can't be used very often... and when he can't use spells, he's worse than everyone else. That's the system.</p><p></p><p>Game B is an OBJECTIVELY worse system unless the following is true:</p><p></p><p>1. The things that the various classes excel at with respect to each other are also things that take up about equal amounts of time at the gaming table. </p><p></p><p>2. The number of "events" per day is always centered around an equilibrium point where the spellcaster's ability to exceed the other classes competence is reasonably balanced with events where the spellcaster cannot exceed other classes competence because he cannot afford to use more spells.</p><p></p><p>I see no reason to think that the first is true of 5e. And the second is virtually impossible to accomplish at the gaming table, often counter to the story needs of the game, and usually shreds into tatters when the spellcaster games more spells as he levels up.</p><p></p><p>I mean "objectively" worse in the literal sense. It isn't a matter of perspective. Games have design goals, and how well they accomplish them can be objectively evaluated. For example, if I intend to design a family board game but I set up the game so that a player can have their chance of victory demolished but not actually be removed from the game, forcing them to sit at the table and numbly move pieces around for an hour with no hope of winning or advancing and with no other motivation except to stop the game from falling apart so that the other players can still have a good game... I've failed. Games that do that aren't fun for the guy who gets knocked out. They lead to bad feelings between the players, and miserable evenings. That's counter to the design goals of a family board game.</p><p></p><p>Similarly, if you have a game who's design goals are apparently to let a group of friends collectively roleplay four to five heroic fantasy characters, and relative to the time spent at the table for any given task what you really create is a game in which one heroic fantasy character is awesome, and his four henchmen kind of help out... you've failed. Objectively.</p><p></p><p>D&D needs to be Lord of the Rings, where Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas all matter. Not Xena, where everybody knows that in terms of screen time doing cool things, Xena > Gabriella > ... .. .. .. .. > Joxter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 5958766, member: 40961"] Two hypothetical games: Game A: In Game A, all classes can contribute reasonably well in all situations. They contribute in slightly different ways, perhaps, but they all contribute. Now sometimes the way they contribute starts getting a bit similar. For example, a fighter and a rogue both contribute to fights by stabbing things in slightly different ways. Game B: Not all characters contribute equally in all situations. For example, there is a class that is the best at fighting. There is another class that has more non-combat skills than anyone else. There's a class who's whole shtick is that he's got spells that are better than anything anyone else does, but can't be used very often... and when he can't use spells, he's worse than everyone else. That's the system. Game B is an OBJECTIVELY worse system unless the following is true: 1. The things that the various classes excel at with respect to each other are also things that take up about equal amounts of time at the gaming table. 2. The number of "events" per day is always centered around an equilibrium point where the spellcaster's ability to exceed the other classes competence is reasonably balanced with events where the spellcaster cannot exceed other classes competence because he cannot afford to use more spells. I see no reason to think that the first is true of 5e. And the second is virtually impossible to accomplish at the gaming table, often counter to the story needs of the game, and usually shreds into tatters when the spellcaster games more spells as he levels up. I mean "objectively" worse in the literal sense. It isn't a matter of perspective. Games have design goals, and how well they accomplish them can be objectively evaluated. For example, if I intend to design a family board game but I set up the game so that a player can have their chance of victory demolished but not actually be removed from the game, forcing them to sit at the table and numbly move pieces around for an hour with no hope of winning or advancing and with no other motivation except to stop the game from falling apart so that the other players can still have a good game... I've failed. Games that do that aren't fun for the guy who gets knocked out. They lead to bad feelings between the players, and miserable evenings. That's counter to the design goals of a family board game. Similarly, if you have a game who's design goals are apparently to let a group of friends collectively roleplay four to five heroic fantasy characters, and relative to the time spent at the table for any given task what you really create is a game in which one heroic fantasy character is awesome, and his four henchmen kind of help out... you've failed. Objectively. D&D needs to be Lord of the Rings, where Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas all matter. Not Xena, where everybody knows that in terms of screen time doing cool things, Xena > Gabriella > ... .. .. .. .. > Joxter. [/QUOTE]
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