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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Tequila Sunrise" data-source="post: 5960606" data-attributes="member: 40398"><p>You're not asking me, but I want to reply because I've had conversations with gamers on this very forum who like 'the curtain.' For example, I've done a lot of monster building in both 3.x and 4e.</p><p></p><p>3.x monsters are built the same as 3.x PCs, sort of. Each monster type is a sort of "class," with a HD type, a BAB progression, saves and so forth. The very existence of these "classes" subtly suggests that they exist to maintain an in-game reality. The beauty of all these design hoops is that gamers -- both DMs and players -- who know about these "monster classes" tend to create their own curtains to rationalize them all on their own. "Dragons have a d12 HD because their bones are super-dense," for example. Not everyone is so specific in their rationalizations, but many of us tend to just assume there're good reasons for this stuff. Myself included. And that's the curtain that conceals the hard part of monster design -- and what most of us could really use guidelines for.</p><p></p><p>4e drew the curtain back, and drew attention to the hardest part of monster design: challenging the players and PCs. "Look," 4e says, "all those monster classes and strange little rules aren't about immersion or believability. They're really there to help you challenge your players without overwhelming them. And if we stop pretending that those design hoops are maintaining some important in-game physics, I can drop a few hoops and show you the ones that really matter." Hence for example the shift from CR, which is just sort of thrown onto a monster after the fact, to monster level, which is one of a 4e monster's most basic stats that other stats are based on.</p><p></p><p>Problem for some gamers is, calling out what's actually important in balanced monster design ruins the illusion that all those "monster classes" and quirky rules are important. Near the end of my 3.x days, I started writing monsters beginning with their CR, and then basing other stats on that. Hey, if PC stats are based on their level, basing monster stats on the equivalent should make it easier right? When I posted about my methods, some DMs expressed disbelief that I was basing my monsters on a purely metagame stat (CR). To them, hit dice are somehow more 'real.' Or more intrinsic, or something.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, yeah, I have been specifically told by detractors of 4e that drawing the curtain to reveal the nuts and bolts of the game is one of the things that 4e does wrong. Because seeing thru the illusion ruins the magic for them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tequila Sunrise, post: 5960606, member: 40398"] You're not asking me, but I want to reply because I've had conversations with gamers on this very forum who like 'the curtain.' For example, I've done a lot of monster building in both 3.x and 4e. 3.x monsters are built the same as 3.x PCs, sort of. Each monster type is a sort of "class," with a HD type, a BAB progression, saves and so forth. The very existence of these "classes" subtly suggests that they exist to maintain an in-game reality. The beauty of all these design hoops is that gamers -- both DMs and players -- who know about these "monster classes" tend to create their own curtains to rationalize them all on their own. "Dragons have a d12 HD because their bones are super-dense," for example. Not everyone is so specific in their rationalizations, but many of us tend to just assume there're good reasons for this stuff. Myself included. And that's the curtain that conceals the hard part of monster design -- and what most of us could really use guidelines for. 4e drew the curtain back, and drew attention to the hardest part of monster design: challenging the players and PCs. "Look," 4e says, "all those monster classes and strange little rules aren't about immersion or believability. They're really there to help you challenge your players without overwhelming them. And if we stop pretending that those design hoops are maintaining some important in-game physics, I can drop a few hoops and show you the ones that really matter." Hence for example the shift from CR, which is just sort of thrown onto a monster after the fact, to monster level, which is one of a 4e monster's most basic stats that other stats are based on. Problem for some gamers is, calling out what's actually important in balanced monster design ruins the illusion that all those "monster classes" and quirky rules are important. Near the end of my 3.x days, I started writing monsters beginning with their CR, and then basing other stats on that. Hey, if PC stats are based on their level, basing monster stats on the equivalent should make it easier right? When I posted about my methods, some DMs expressed disbelief that I was basing my monsters on a purely metagame stat (CR). To them, hit dice are somehow more 'real.' Or more intrinsic, or something. Anyway, yeah, I have been specifically told by detractors of 4e that drawing the curtain to reveal the nuts and bolts of the game is one of the things that 4e does wrong. Because seeing thru the illusion ruins the magic for them. [/QUOTE]
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