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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5961170" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>It relates to our exchage upthread (? or on another recent thread) about the relationship between wandering monsters, as a mechanic, and player goals/expectations for play.</p><p></p><p>The foreword seems to promise a game of heroic fantasy. But the mechanics of B/X - both on the player side and on the GM side - presuppose and produce a game of mostly amoral dungeon raiding and looting. Relevant mechanics on the player side include the XP rules (most XP come from treasure looted) and the non-combat mechanics, which include a reaction roll which clearly presupposes encounters with potential combatants (1 in 36 strangers are so hostile they initiate combat immediately, and another 1 in 4 are inclined that way) and mechanics for exploring a dungeon (heavy doors at which one might listen, or which one might struggle to open, plus traps and secret doors). On the GM side, the mechanics mostly concern stocking a dungeon with creatures, traps and treasure to be looted, and rules for wandering monsters.</p><p></p><p>There are no rules for encountering mysterious hermits who might give you dragon slaying swords. Nor rules for setting up scenarios involving dragon tyrants to be slain.</p><p></p><p>I agree that D&D doesn't do lone heroes - it's about group adventuring. (The main model I draw on for thinking about team heroics is actually the superhero team.)</p><p></p><p>But in my experience AD&D doesn't do heroics any better than Moldvay Basic. The mechanics are still primarily about dungeon or wilderness journeying, and taking loot to gain levels. (2nd ed AD&D has a different XP scheme, but the mechanics aren't much more developed.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not particularly about killing dragons, in a single blow or otherwise. It's about a game that has mechanics that support a story about fantasy heroics rather than fantasy mercenaries.</p><p></p><p>In 4e, I'm thinking of the XP rules (which include XP for quests and skill challenges), skill challenges as a general action resolution mechanic for a range of non-combat activities, and story elements which are presented already embedded in a default storyline of heroic conflict.</p><p></p><p>This is more of the stuff in Moldvay Basic, and classic D&D more generally, that makes it something other than a game of heroic fantasy.</p><p></p><p>Prior to 4e, the version of D&D that had come closest to supporting heroic fantasy was Oriental Adventures (the mid-80s original), which for some classes gave XP on a basis other than gold looted, and which - via its Honour and Ancestry rules - generated PCs already embedded in circumstances of heroic conflict, and which presented monsters that were also embedded in those same circumstances. (OA had flaws - its Honour mechanics are overly presciptive, for example, not unlike classic D&D alignment, and it is still saddled with the limitations of classic D&D action resolution - but it was the first D&D book to show me how to focus fantasy RPGing onto the heroic fantasy that I'm personally interested in.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5961170, member: 42582"] It relates to our exchage upthread (? or on another recent thread) about the relationship between wandering monsters, as a mechanic, and player goals/expectations for play. The foreword seems to promise a game of heroic fantasy. But the mechanics of B/X - both on the player side and on the GM side - presuppose and produce a game of mostly amoral dungeon raiding and looting. Relevant mechanics on the player side include the XP rules (most XP come from treasure looted) and the non-combat mechanics, which include a reaction roll which clearly presupposes encounters with potential combatants (1 in 36 strangers are so hostile they initiate combat immediately, and another 1 in 4 are inclined that way) and mechanics for exploring a dungeon (heavy doors at which one might listen, or which one might struggle to open, plus traps and secret doors). On the GM side, the mechanics mostly concern stocking a dungeon with creatures, traps and treasure to be looted, and rules for wandering monsters. There are no rules for encountering mysterious hermits who might give you dragon slaying swords. Nor rules for setting up scenarios involving dragon tyrants to be slain. I agree that D&D doesn't do lone heroes - it's about group adventuring. (The main model I draw on for thinking about team heroics is actually the superhero team.) But in my experience AD&D doesn't do heroics any better than Moldvay Basic. The mechanics are still primarily about dungeon or wilderness journeying, and taking loot to gain levels. (2nd ed AD&D has a different XP scheme, but the mechanics aren't much more developed.) It's not particularly about killing dragons, in a single blow or otherwise. It's about a game that has mechanics that support a story about fantasy heroics rather than fantasy mercenaries. In 4e, I'm thinking of the XP rules (which include XP for quests and skill challenges), skill challenges as a general action resolution mechanic for a range of non-combat activities, and story elements which are presented already embedded in a default storyline of heroic conflict. This is more of the stuff in Moldvay Basic, and classic D&D more generally, that makes it something other than a game of heroic fantasy. Prior to 4e, the version of D&D that had come closest to supporting heroic fantasy was Oriental Adventures (the mid-80s original), which for some classes gave XP on a basis other than gold looted, and which - via its Honour and Ancestry rules - generated PCs already embedded in circumstances of heroic conflict, and which presented monsters that were also embedded in those same circumstances. (OA had flaws - its Honour mechanics are overly presciptive, for example, not unlike classic D&D alignment, and it is still saddled with the limitations of classic D&D action resolution - but it was the first D&D book to show me how to focus fantasy RPGing onto the heroic fantasy that I'm personally interested in.) [/QUOTE]
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