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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5965427" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Not in any way shape or form. It's an analogy. </p><p></p><p>Shoddy design is shoddy design.</p><p></p><p>Either way it's insulting and condescending, and an excuse for shoddy design.</p><p></p><p>You may enjoy the extra work, you may be good at it, but you're still doing off the cuff design when you do that. </p><p></p><p>Truth is, I run that way, myself, frequently. I have a talent for it, and it's easier than learning the minutiae of a not-so-good game that I'd just have to heavily modify, anyway. It's also a great technique to fall back on when the rules fail you. But, it's what I'd have to consider an 'advanced' technique, it's not for everybody, and, taken to the extreme, it's freestyle RP, at which point you need few if any rules, anyway.</p><p></p><p>I think what we're both casting about for here is an 'elegant' rule system. Not rules heavy, not incomplete, but spare and efficient and intuitive. It's a great ideal to strive for. The 5e playtest is definitely not there, nor even trying to get there, though. It's 'rules' light by excision of complexity, not be reducing the need for complexity.</p><p></p><p>I think of it as breaking the game is always easier than fixing it. But, adding is not that easy, because it's both a creative and a design task. You have to dream up the stuff you're going to add, and balance it. Banning undesireable things - taking away what you don't want - can be quite easy, if the game is robust enough and modular enough. </p><p></p><p>And, that's a point, too, because a modular game is both a simple game (the core, with no modules) that you add to, and a complex game (using all modules) that you deduct from. To be really good in either case, it needs to be designed and balanced as the complete game, and the potential combinations of modules accounted for - a very substantial undertaking for the designers. I can't see doing it piecemeal (publish a simple system and add complexity to it after the fact) as a good alternative. But then, that's what playtesting is for.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5965427, member: 996"] Not in any way shape or form. It's an analogy. Shoddy design is shoddy design. Either way it's insulting and condescending, and an excuse for shoddy design. You may enjoy the extra work, you may be good at it, but you're still doing off the cuff design when you do that. Truth is, I run that way, myself, frequently. I have a talent for it, and it's easier than learning the minutiae of a not-so-good game that I'd just have to heavily modify, anyway. It's also a great technique to fall back on when the rules fail you. But, it's what I'd have to consider an 'advanced' technique, it's not for everybody, and, taken to the extreme, it's freestyle RP, at which point you need few if any rules, anyway. I think what we're both casting about for here is an 'elegant' rule system. Not rules heavy, not incomplete, but spare and efficient and intuitive. It's a great ideal to strive for. The 5e playtest is definitely not there, nor even trying to get there, though. It's 'rules' light by excision of complexity, not be reducing the need for complexity. I think of it as breaking the game is always easier than fixing it. But, adding is not that easy, because it's both a creative and a design task. You have to dream up the stuff you're going to add, and balance it. Banning undesireable things - taking away what you don't want - can be quite easy, if the game is robust enough and modular enough. And, that's a point, too, because a modular game is both a simple game (the core, with no modules) that you add to, and a complex game (using all modules) that you deduct from. To be really good in either case, it needs to be designed and balanced as the complete game, and the potential combinations of modules accounted for - a very substantial undertaking for the designers. I can't see doing it piecemeal (publish a simple system and add complexity to it after the fact) as a good alternative. But then, that's what playtesting is for. [/QUOTE]
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