Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="jsaving" data-source="post: 5967877" data-attributes="member: 16726"><p>You say that 4e fans are unique in valuing balance, clear design and purpose, clarity and cohesion, opportunities for teamwork, options and varieties in play, ease of play, and monster factics. Which got me to thinking, who <em>wouldn't</em> agree with them? Could it really be true that 3e fans see these as negatives rather than positives? </p><p></p><p>A bit of background: my gaming group split in half over the 3e/4e issue and I'm one of the few people who participates in both groups. I like both systems and don't have any particular axe to grind, so I thought I'd show your list to each group (separately) and get their reactions to it. <em>Every single person</em> from both groups agreed they are all valuable components of a well-functioning ruleset. Where they disagreed was over two things: 1) did 4e succeed or fail at achieving them, and 2) did 4e introduce offsetting failures into the ruleset while attempting to achieve them? There's a fine line between "easing play" and "dumbing down the system," between "balance" and "blandness," etc, and I think it's important to correctly articulate the differences between editions if we're truly to understand how their fanbases can be reconciled.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>After seeing Pathfinder grow to the point where it now outsells 4e in many gaming shops, WotC is *acutely* aware that gamers don't automatically buy new editions of D&D because of brand loyalty -- you need have no concern about that. But WotC's internal sales data have persuaded it that D&D simply isn't a viable enterprise going forward given the size and composition of the existing player base, no matter how much any of us might wish it could be otherwise. This doesn't prove anything about which edition is "better," notwithstanding some of the things one hears from the 3e side of the fanbase. But it does mean Next has to address some of 4e's real or perceived shortcomings from the 3e side of things if it is to have any hope of bringing those players back -- a necessary condition for growing the game. </p><p></p><p>What's often forgotten, though, is that retaining the existing 4e fanbase is *also* a necessary part of the equation. If what 3e fans want to see in Next is less balance, less ease of play, a muddled design and purpose, less clarity and cohesion, less teamwork, fewer options and varieties in play, and unclear monster design and tactics -- which seems to be where rpgnet is coming from -- then there is no hope for a reconciliation between the respective fanbases because these are things for which almost no 4e fan would stand. The good news is that almost no 3e fan would stand for them either, notwithstanding some of the things one hears from the 4e side of the fanbase. Which leaves some hope that Next can be successful after all, in my view at least.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jsaving, post: 5967877, member: 16726"] You say that 4e fans are unique in valuing balance, clear design and purpose, clarity and cohesion, opportunities for teamwork, options and varieties in play, ease of play, and monster factics. Which got me to thinking, who [i]wouldn't[/i] agree with them? Could it really be true that 3e fans see these as negatives rather than positives? A bit of background: my gaming group split in half over the 3e/4e issue and I'm one of the few people who participates in both groups. I like both systems and don't have any particular axe to grind, so I thought I'd show your list to each group (separately) and get their reactions to it. [i]Every single person[/i] from both groups agreed they are all valuable components of a well-functioning ruleset. Where they disagreed was over two things: 1) did 4e succeed or fail at achieving them, and 2) did 4e introduce offsetting failures into the ruleset while attempting to achieve them? There's a fine line between "easing play" and "dumbing down the system," between "balance" and "blandness," etc, and I think it's important to correctly articulate the differences between editions if we're truly to understand how their fanbases can be reconciled. After seeing Pathfinder grow to the point where it now outsells 4e in many gaming shops, WotC is *acutely* aware that gamers don't automatically buy new editions of D&D because of brand loyalty -- you need have no concern about that. But WotC's internal sales data have persuaded it that D&D simply isn't a viable enterprise going forward given the size and composition of the existing player base, no matter how much any of us might wish it could be otherwise. This doesn't prove anything about which edition is "better," notwithstanding some of the things one hears from the 3e side of the fanbase. But it does mean Next has to address some of 4e's real or perceived shortcomings from the 3e side of things if it is to have any hope of bringing those players back -- a necessary condition for growing the game. What's often forgotten, though, is that retaining the existing 4e fanbase is *also* a necessary part of the equation. If what 3e fans want to see in Next is less balance, less ease of play, a muddled design and purpose, less clarity and cohesion, less teamwork, fewer options and varieties in play, and unclear monster design and tactics -- which seems to be where rpgnet is coming from -- then there is no hope for a reconciliation between the respective fanbases because these are things for which almost no 4e fan would stand. The good news is that almost no 3e fan would stand for them either, notwithstanding some of the things one hears from the 4e side of the fanbase. Which leaves some hope that Next can be successful after all, in my view at least. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
Top