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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5983041" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Fewer conditions (and 4e had only half as many conditions as 3e did) really /do/ help, they're easier to remember and keep straight, for instance, so less looking up rules in the middle of combats or debating what those rules mean. Now, in 4e, everybody does get powers, and some of those powers - particularly dailies - inflict save-ends conditions. It's unlikely that everyone will throw a daily on the same monster, and even less likely that they'll all have non-identical save-ends effects. When that does happen - typically vs some uber solo in a 'boss' fight, your monster has that +5 save bonus, and, MM3 and later, action-preservation traits that can end some of those conditions, too.</p><p></p><p>Encounter or the rare at-will condition-inflicting power, OTOH, tend to be End of next turn. </p><p></p><p>So conditions rarely last a whole encounter. Which brings me to a different but related topic:</p><p></p><p>For the most part 3e let conditions, once inflicted, last out the fight, often ending the effectiveness of the victim. 3.5 started to get wise to that problem with Hold, which presaged the 4e save-ends duration with a save every round to avoid a single failed save ending a creatures participation in the combat.</p><p></p><p>Saves at the end of every round /do/ add a book-keeping factor, though, but the benefit of keeping everyone involved in each encounter is worth price of losing seconds to that book-keeping every single turn, IMHO (even though that price is, cumulatively, not so small). "Keeping everyone involved" doesn't just mean getting PC out from under conditions, either, it also means letting PCs inflict potent/interesting conditions, themselves, without destroying encounter balance. </p><p></p><p>The balanced/playable alternative to having everyone able to throw out conditions that quickly expire or get saved against would be to have no one throwing out conditions, at all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5983041, member: 996"] Fewer conditions (and 4e had only half as many conditions as 3e did) really /do/ help, they're easier to remember and keep straight, for instance, so less looking up rules in the middle of combats or debating what those rules mean. Now, in 4e, everybody does get powers, and some of those powers - particularly dailies - inflict save-ends conditions. It's unlikely that everyone will throw a daily on the same monster, and even less likely that they'll all have non-identical save-ends effects. When that does happen - typically vs some uber solo in a 'boss' fight, your monster has that +5 save bonus, and, MM3 and later, action-preservation traits that can end some of those conditions, too. Encounter or the rare at-will condition-inflicting power, OTOH, tend to be End of next turn. So conditions rarely last a whole encounter. Which brings me to a different but related topic: For the most part 3e let conditions, once inflicted, last out the fight, often ending the effectiveness of the victim. 3.5 started to get wise to that problem with Hold, which presaged the 4e save-ends duration with a save every round to avoid a single failed save ending a creatures participation in the combat. Saves at the end of every round /do/ add a book-keeping factor, though, but the benefit of keeping everyone involved in each encounter is worth price of losing seconds to that book-keeping every single turn, IMHO (even though that price is, cumulatively, not so small). "Keeping everyone involved" doesn't just mean getting PC out from under conditions, either, it also means letting PCs inflict potent/interesting conditions, themselves, without destroying encounter balance. The balanced/playable alternative to having everyone able to throw out conditions that quickly expire or get saved against would be to have no one throwing out conditions, at all. [/QUOTE]
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