Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="TwinBahamut" data-source="post: 5983097" data-attributes="member: 32536"><p>First off, I want to say that I strongly agree with [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION], and that I'd give him experience points for his last post if I didn't need to spread them around a bit first...</p><p></p><p>The thing is, I see no value in taking power away from the rules. The rules only apply once the people playing the game choose to use them. They are powerless, except as far as the people playing the game choose to follow them. People don't need a Rule Zero to give them the ability to change the game because it is redundant in that capacity; they can never be deprived of that ability. What's important, then, is its role in establishing the meta-rules that helps people determine <em>who</em> does that and <em>how</em>. </p><p></p><p>Basically, the tone that Rule Zero sets in establishing the power balance between people at the table has more impact than the illusion of freedom it provides.</p><p></p><p>Debate is way more fun than dictatorship. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Also, the fact is that you're assuming the DM is the "leader" of the table. That is in of itself the problem I'm complaining about. D&D has built up this culture that combines many different roles of power together unnecessarily. There is no reason that the person who runs the monsters, the person that builds the campaign setting, the person who plays the NPCs, the person that adjudicates unclear rules, the person that chooses what rules to use, the person who has the authority to kick people out of the game, and the person who "leads" all have to be the same person. Basically, D&D's own rules and culture push players towards a way of playing where one person runs everything, and everyone else are just pawns dancing to the script. That is far, far from what I consider ideal.</p><p></p><p>Amusingly enough, I just watched The Dark Knight Rises between my last post and this one...</p><p></p><p>Anyways, comparing a movie director to a DM is silly. The DM is anything but the player's boss. If he is, then the game is already dysfunctional. Almost preferably, he's scrambling to serve their whims and adapt to the thousand and one ways their wrecking all of his myriad plans and schemes. He's the stage manager working to give everyone in the production what they need to keep on making the show go on, not the one calling the shots.</p><p></p><p>Also, your analogy doesn't work because, well, that's not the only way to direct a production. For example, smaller stage productions these days often use a technique where the actors have an extremely influential role in developing the story of a play and framing its scenes (and I think there's evidence that this goes at least as far back as Shakespeare). Stage productions can be indeed cooperative efforts where the director doesn't make all the decisions. If we want to move even closer to tabletop roleplaying, improv theater doesn't even have a director giving final approval, and many essential decisions are made on the fly based on an actor's best judgement or audience reaction and involvement.</p><p></p><p>This line of thinking is unproductive. You know what? An incompetant DM is still a normal person trying his best to make a fun game. Doing so isn't easy, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If a system makes a DMs job harder, then you blame the system, not the DM, especially if it is the system's advice and intents that drove that good person to become a bad DM.</p><p></p><p>No, they are rules, not guidelines, same as any other game. Sure you can ignore them or change them on the fly, but you run into the exact same issues as when you try to ignore or change the rules of basketball on the fly.</p><p></p><p>But, yeah, I completely trust a good game designer over any random DM's judgement. Game design isn't easy, even if some people foolishly think it is. It is full of all kinds of pitfalls and problems. That's why we're complaining about the rules in the first place! Even many professional game designers aren't that great, as D&D's long an unbroken tradition of flawed rulesets and terrible mistakes makes clear enough. Still, I think it is better to work to improve the rules themselves, or replace them with a competing ruleset, rather than to try to patch up a leaky ruleset with DM fiat. If Mike Mearls doesn't give me good rules I can go ask Monte Cook for some, and if he fails I can go ask Rob Heinsoo for some. I'm not lacking for options and choices.</p><p></p><p>Also, the DM isn't responsible for the story. I don't know why you think he is, since that's not even an assumption of the rules. Ultimately, the story is in the player's hands.</p><p></p><p>Well, rules can't replace good DMing, but they should help people become better DMs, rather than force people to become good DMs despite bad rules. Also, this ideology doesn't really apply to the whole issue of how Rule Zero or DM Fiat should work. A person can be a great DM without ever changing a rule or making a judgement call, and a person can become a terrible DM by doing just that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TwinBahamut, post: 5983097, member: 32536"] First off, I want to say that I strongly agree with [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION], and that I'd give him experience points for his last post if I didn't need to spread them around a bit first... The thing is, I see no value in taking power away from the rules. The rules only apply once the people playing the game choose to use them. They are powerless, except as far as the people playing the game choose to follow them. People don't need a Rule Zero to give them the ability to change the game because it is redundant in that capacity; they can never be deprived of that ability. What's important, then, is its role in establishing the meta-rules that helps people determine [i]who[/i] does that and [i]how[/i]. Basically, the tone that Rule Zero sets in establishing the power balance between people at the table has more impact than the illusion of freedom it provides. Debate is way more fun than dictatorship. :) Also, the fact is that you're assuming the DM is the "leader" of the table. That is in of itself the problem I'm complaining about. D&D has built up this culture that combines many different roles of power together unnecessarily. There is no reason that the person who runs the monsters, the person that builds the campaign setting, the person who plays the NPCs, the person that adjudicates unclear rules, the person that chooses what rules to use, the person who has the authority to kick people out of the game, and the person who "leads" all have to be the same person. Basically, D&D's own rules and culture push players towards a way of playing where one person runs everything, and everyone else are just pawns dancing to the script. That is far, far from what I consider ideal. Amusingly enough, I just watched The Dark Knight Rises between my last post and this one... Anyways, comparing a movie director to a DM is silly. The DM is anything but the player's boss. If he is, then the game is already dysfunctional. Almost preferably, he's scrambling to serve their whims and adapt to the thousand and one ways their wrecking all of his myriad plans and schemes. He's the stage manager working to give everyone in the production what they need to keep on making the show go on, not the one calling the shots. Also, your analogy doesn't work because, well, that's not the only way to direct a production. For example, smaller stage productions these days often use a technique where the actors have an extremely influential role in developing the story of a play and framing its scenes (and I think there's evidence that this goes at least as far back as Shakespeare). Stage productions can be indeed cooperative efforts where the director doesn't make all the decisions. If we want to move even closer to tabletop roleplaying, improv theater doesn't even have a director giving final approval, and many essential decisions are made on the fly based on an actor's best judgement or audience reaction and involvement. This line of thinking is unproductive. You know what? An incompetant DM is still a normal person trying his best to make a fun game. Doing so isn't easy, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If a system makes a DMs job harder, then you blame the system, not the DM, especially if it is the system's advice and intents that drove that good person to become a bad DM. No, they are rules, not guidelines, same as any other game. Sure you can ignore them or change them on the fly, but you run into the exact same issues as when you try to ignore or change the rules of basketball on the fly. But, yeah, I completely trust a good game designer over any random DM's judgement. Game design isn't easy, even if some people foolishly think it is. It is full of all kinds of pitfalls and problems. That's why we're complaining about the rules in the first place! Even many professional game designers aren't that great, as D&D's long an unbroken tradition of flawed rulesets and terrible mistakes makes clear enough. Still, I think it is better to work to improve the rules themselves, or replace them with a competing ruleset, rather than to try to patch up a leaky ruleset with DM fiat. If Mike Mearls doesn't give me good rules I can go ask Monte Cook for some, and if he fails I can go ask Rob Heinsoo for some. I'm not lacking for options and choices. Also, the DM isn't responsible for the story. I don't know why you think he is, since that's not even an assumption of the rules. Ultimately, the story is in the player's hands. Well, rules can't replace good DMing, but they should help people become better DMs, rather than force people to become good DMs despite bad rules. Also, this ideology doesn't really apply to the whole issue of how Rule Zero or DM Fiat should work. A person can be a great DM without ever changing a rule or making a judgement call, and a person can become a terrible DM by doing just that. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
Top