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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 5986611" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>So you are going to postulate a force that, in complete contrast to what we know of the other forces, doesn't interact with those "existing" forces unless it feels like it? Just so that "magic" can retain it's place as a "special snowflake"? Well, whatever floats your boat. If I absolutely have to pick an underlying "truth" I think I'll go with something more akin to the World of Darkness (Mage) ideas.</p><p></p><p>Compatibility is nice, but it doesn't <em>have</em> to be mechanical. I have used Universalis to generate background happenings for HârnMaster, for example; the same character ports from one system to another with vastly different statistics, but it's still the same character. The statistics map into how events resolve in the world under the mechanics in use; as long as the resolution <em>could</em> conceivably arise under either system in use, the translation is good enough.</p><p></p><p>I would say it's easier to change system, but it's a fussy point; changing players works, too.</p><p></p><p>Because the Hobgoblin <strong><u>Warcaster</u></strong> (clue <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1" target="_blank">#1</a> ) is casting a spell through an implement.</p><p></p><p>I guess it's a persoanl thing, but I never see hit points as "real" to the character. They have no idea how many hit points they have, or how many they have lost; they just know they are hurt/surprised/off balance/winded/shocked/whatever.</p><p></p><p>Clue <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1" target="_blank">#1</a> is that the Hobgoblin is a Warcaster - and I'm going to take a wild guess that that is some sort of, you know, spell caster. Clue <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2" target="_blank">#2</a> is that he has a "Quarterstaff" melee basic attack; I'm going to assume that this is the same staff, since I don't see it as sensible for him to wield two at once. Clue <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3" target="_blank">#3</a> is that the "Shock Staff" attack is rechargable, meaning he cannot automatically cast/use it every turn - it's the monster equivalent of an "encounter" power, since "daily" and "encounter" are typically synonymous for monsters.</p><p></p><p>The world abides by the system, thus it is consistent. The <em>reasons behind</em> that consistency are not any part of the realm of the <strong>game system</strong> - they are part of the <strong>game world</strong>, which is the province of the gaming group.</p><p></p><p>These "reasons behind the resolutions" are the "underlying meta-system" I have been talking about. They are not a part of the "game system", which just defines how resolutions are made. The game system is how the actual real players at the actual real table decide what happens in the imaginary game world. Why and how those resolutions happen in the imaginary game world is the province of imagination, not of game rules.</p><p></p><p>Consistency doesn't require that all things must be built the same way. Otherwise AEDU characters would be "consistent" where earlier edition characters are not (which, even as a lover of 4e, I think is a ridiculous notion!)</p><p></p><p>The staff doesn't have the power to dish out electrical damage - the Hobgoblin Warcaster wielding the staff does, in exactly the same way as a Fighter wielding a sword has the power to dish out weapon damage, and the Wizard wielding a wand has the power to dish out force damage with a Magic Missile or a Cloud of Daggers.</p><p></p><p>Why? Hobgoblin Warcaster is not a playeable class. If it became so, I would expect such a power to be at least notionally possible (though not necessarily written up). It wouldn't necessarily do the same damage, though, since damage is an abstract, system concept, not a world object concept. There is no "Law of Conservation of Hit Points", nor need there be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 5986611, member: 27160"] So you are going to postulate a force that, in complete contrast to what we know of the other forces, doesn't interact with those "existing" forces unless it feels like it? Just so that "magic" can retain it's place as a "special snowflake"? Well, whatever floats your boat. If I absolutely have to pick an underlying "truth" I think I'll go with something more akin to the World of Darkness (Mage) ideas. Compatibility is nice, but it doesn't [I]have[/I] to be mechanical. I have used Universalis to generate background happenings for HârnMaster, for example; the same character ports from one system to another with vastly different statistics, but it's still the same character. The statistics map into how events resolve in the world under the mechanics in use; as long as the resolution [I]could[/I] conceivably arise under either system in use, the translation is good enough. I would say it's easier to change system, but it's a fussy point; changing players works, too. Because the Hobgoblin [B][U]Warcaster[/U][/B] (clue [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1[/URL] ) is casting a spell through an implement. I guess it's a persoanl thing, but I never see hit points as "real" to the character. They have no idea how many hit points they have, or how many they have lost; they just know they are hurt/surprised/off balance/winded/shocked/whatever. Clue [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1[/URL] is that the Hobgoblin is a Warcaster - and I'm going to take a wild guess that that is some sort of, you know, spell caster. Clue [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2]#2[/URL] is that he has a "Quarterstaff" melee basic attack; I'm going to assume that this is the same staff, since I don't see it as sensible for him to wield two at once. Clue [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3]#3[/URL] is that the "Shock Staff" attack is rechargable, meaning he cannot automatically cast/use it every turn - it's the monster equivalent of an "encounter" power, since "daily" and "encounter" are typically synonymous for monsters. The world abides by the system, thus it is consistent. The [I]reasons behind[/I] that consistency are not any part of the realm of the [B]game system[/B] - they are part of the [B]game world[/B], which is the province of the gaming group. These "reasons behind the resolutions" are the "underlying meta-system" I have been talking about. They are not a part of the "game system", which just defines how resolutions are made. The game system is how the actual real players at the actual real table decide what happens in the imaginary game world. Why and how those resolutions happen in the imaginary game world is the province of imagination, not of game rules. Consistency doesn't require that all things must be built the same way. Otherwise AEDU characters would be "consistent" where earlier edition characters are not (which, even as a lover of 4e, I think is a ridiculous notion!) The staff doesn't have the power to dish out electrical damage - the Hobgoblin Warcaster wielding the staff does, in exactly the same way as a Fighter wielding a sword has the power to dish out weapon damage, and the Wizard wielding a wand has the power to dish out force damage with a Magic Missile or a Cloud of Daggers. Why? Hobgoblin Warcaster is not a playeable class. If it became so, I would expect such a power to be at least notionally possible (though not necessarily written up). It wouldn't necessarily do the same damage, though, since damage is an abstract, system concept, not a world object concept. There is no "Law of Conservation of Hit Points", nor need there be. [/QUOTE]
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