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Correlating Player Satisfaction, Combat Speed, and HP / Damage Modeling
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<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6937199" data-attributes="member: 85870"><p>So lo and behold, for the first time in five years of play, I've found a chink in the armor of my unabashed love for Savage Worlds---and it's related to the toughness mechanic. </p><p></p><p>Our current GM has basically been playing a game of "Up the Ante" when it comes to enemy's toughness ratings. For those who aren't familiar with the system, Savage Worlds doesn't use a hit point system to calculate wounds/damage. Instead, every foe has a "toughness" rating which directly correlates to their Vigor score. Armor in Savage Worlds does nothing to improve dodging or parrying, it calculates as damage reduction against the character's base toughness. To wound an enemy, you have to meet or exceed the enemy's toughness by 4 or more, after subtracting damage for armor. If you meet the enemy's toughness, or exceed the enemy's toughness by 3 or less, the enemy is not wounded, but is "shaken," a minor, temporary condition that makes it easier to wound the character in the future. Once an enemy suffers a certain number of wounds, as arbitrated by the GM, the enemy goes down. The maximum number of wounds an enemy can suffer is usually 4, but can ultimately be any number the GM decides. </p><p></p><p>The issue I'm having is that the GM is basically setting insanely high toughness scores for enemies, then layering armor on top of that. And though I didn't fully realize it until our group's last session, this is having a negative effect on my enthusiasm for the game. </p><p></p><p>In effect what is happening is that it sets up combat as a complete "all or nothing" scenario on every attack---either you've done enough to meaningfully cause a wound, or you've done nothing at all. As a player this gives the feeling that control of encounters is almost completely up to the fate of the dice. I'm not just hoping to get a "solid" hit on an opponent; I'm hoping that I get enough to get a raise (exceeding the enemy's parry score by 4 or more) so I can add my extra damage die, because without that extra damage die, I have almost zero shot of doing enough damage to have any effect. </p><p></p><p>This is made even worse by Pinnacle Game's decision last year to errata the shaken condition to be much easier to recover from for everyone---NPCs/enemies and PCs alike. On top of this fact there are many enemies who automatically recover from being shaken, making a shaken condition vastly less serious or worthwhile to inflict as a player. Before, causing an enemy to be shaken was at least a decent consolation prize; now it barely registers. "Oh, whoopee! He's shaken. For all the good it will do."</p><p></p><p>It's gotten to the point where it's brought back feelings for what I always felt like was one of the worst traits of GURPS, which was no matter how well you succeeded on your attack, all the enemy had to do was make a simple "success" roll on a parry or dodge, and your entire attack was negated.</p><p></p><p>Now, to a certain point, there are reasons that I like Savage Worlds' toughness mechanic --- one, it completely eliminates any need to do any kind of post-hoc rationalization of what a "wound" actually means in game terms---if you're wounded, you're wounded, period. I don't have to imagine some strange reason for hit points to naturally recover after taking a 10-minute breather. I don't have to wonder why someone with 1 hit point left is still navigating the battlefield at full speed, making attacks and acting at full strength, but as soon as someone breathes on them wrong and they lose their last hit point, they fall over unconscious. I don't have to play "Schrodinger's Wounds" to explain why someone was hurt enough to nearly die, but wake up a day later as if nothing happened. So for all these reasons, the wound/toughness mechanic has worked for me in the past. </p><p></p><p>Too, it seems that this sort of toughness/wound mechanic is more grounded in real life, where a fight's end is typically sudden and swift, due to one of the combatants scoring the "critical hit" they needed. Also, the toughness/wound mechanic allows for large-scale, cinematic encounters with far less GM overhead. Our last session we had a MASSIVE combat between 4 PCs plus 20 or 25 allied NPCs against 40 NPC foes that only took 2 hours to resolve. </p><p></p><p>But I have to admit, the thing I'm suddenly missing about D&D is the concept that every successful attack matters. Even if an attack ultimately only does 1 HP of damage, <em>the enemy still has </em><em>1 HP less than they did before. </em> For all of the problems of in-game verisimilitude, practical application, and slower pace of combat due to having to manage hit point totals, as a player I'm finding merit in the idea seeing my successful actions actually having in-game consequences, even small ones, rather than having to rely on luck to get "just the perfect die roll."</p><p></p><p>Interestingly, The One Ring's damage modeling is something of a hybrid between D&D and Savage Worlds. Every character has a "vitality" pool that can be exhausted through combat damage, fatigue, and exposure to Shadow. Once a character's vitality hits 0, the character gains the "wounded" condition, which has lots of unhealthy consequences, which doesn't go away without extended rest (a week or more, if I remember correctly). At that point, the character's vitality resets, but their pool maximum is lowered, and if their vitality hits zero again, the character dies.</p><p></p><p>Ultimately what I'm wondering, is for those of you familiar with other systems, how does the damage modeling for those systems impact combat pace and allow for higher (or lower) character engagement? I'd particularly be interested in hearing about stuff like Rolemaster, Runequest, or HERO, systems that I've heard of and have read bits and pieces of, but would never purchase material for them because I know I'll simply never play them.</p><p></p><p>I'm considering adding an "escalation die" house rule to enemy combatants, where an enemy has a timer/countdown value equal to their vigor die. If an attack does damage but doesn't beat the enemy's toughness, the attack instead reduces the enemy's escalation die. Once the die reaches zero, the next successful attack on the enemy causes a shaken condition REGARDLESS of damage dealt on the attack, and a wound will be caused if the damage meets the enemy's base toughness. Escalation damage ONLY applies when an attack succeeds but the damage roll fails to exceed the enemy's toughness.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 6937199, member: 85870"] So lo and behold, for the first time in five years of play, I've found a chink in the armor of my unabashed love for Savage Worlds---and it's related to the toughness mechanic. Our current GM has basically been playing a game of "Up the Ante" when it comes to enemy's toughness ratings. For those who aren't familiar with the system, Savage Worlds doesn't use a hit point system to calculate wounds/damage. Instead, every foe has a "toughness" rating which directly correlates to their Vigor score. Armor in Savage Worlds does nothing to improve dodging or parrying, it calculates as damage reduction against the character's base toughness. To wound an enemy, you have to meet or exceed the enemy's toughness by 4 or more, after subtracting damage for armor. If you meet the enemy's toughness, or exceed the enemy's toughness by 3 or less, the enemy is not wounded, but is "shaken," a minor, temporary condition that makes it easier to wound the character in the future. Once an enemy suffers a certain number of wounds, as arbitrated by the GM, the enemy goes down. The maximum number of wounds an enemy can suffer is usually 4, but can ultimately be any number the GM decides. The issue I'm having is that the GM is basically setting insanely high toughness scores for enemies, then layering armor on top of that. And though I didn't fully realize it until our group's last session, this is having a negative effect on my enthusiasm for the game. In effect what is happening is that it sets up combat as a complete "all or nothing" scenario on every attack---either you've done enough to meaningfully cause a wound, or you've done nothing at all. As a player this gives the feeling that control of encounters is almost completely up to the fate of the dice. I'm not just hoping to get a "solid" hit on an opponent; I'm hoping that I get enough to get a raise (exceeding the enemy's parry score by 4 or more) so I can add my extra damage die, because without that extra damage die, I have almost zero shot of doing enough damage to have any effect. This is made even worse by Pinnacle Game's decision last year to errata the shaken condition to be much easier to recover from for everyone---NPCs/enemies and PCs alike. On top of this fact there are many enemies who automatically recover from being shaken, making a shaken condition vastly less serious or worthwhile to inflict as a player. Before, causing an enemy to be shaken was at least a decent consolation prize; now it barely registers. "Oh, whoopee! He's shaken. For all the good it will do." It's gotten to the point where it's brought back feelings for what I always felt like was one of the worst traits of GURPS, which was no matter how well you succeeded on your attack, all the enemy had to do was make a simple "success" roll on a parry or dodge, and your entire attack was negated. Now, to a certain point, there are reasons that I like Savage Worlds' toughness mechanic --- one, it completely eliminates any need to do any kind of post-hoc rationalization of what a "wound" actually means in game terms---if you're wounded, you're wounded, period. I don't have to imagine some strange reason for hit points to naturally recover after taking a 10-minute breather. I don't have to wonder why someone with 1 hit point left is still navigating the battlefield at full speed, making attacks and acting at full strength, but as soon as someone breathes on them wrong and they lose their last hit point, they fall over unconscious. I don't have to play "Schrodinger's Wounds" to explain why someone was hurt enough to nearly die, but wake up a day later as if nothing happened. So for all these reasons, the wound/toughness mechanic has worked for me in the past. Too, it seems that this sort of toughness/wound mechanic is more grounded in real life, where a fight's end is typically sudden and swift, due to one of the combatants scoring the "critical hit" they needed. Also, the toughness/wound mechanic allows for large-scale, cinematic encounters with far less GM overhead. Our last session we had a MASSIVE combat between 4 PCs plus 20 or 25 allied NPCs against 40 NPC foes that only took 2 hours to resolve. But I have to admit, the thing I'm suddenly missing about D&D is the concept that every successful attack matters. Even if an attack ultimately only does 1 HP of damage, [I]the enemy still has [/I][I]1 HP less than they did before. [/I] For all of the problems of in-game verisimilitude, practical application, and slower pace of combat due to having to manage hit point totals, as a player I'm finding merit in the idea seeing my successful actions actually having in-game consequences, even small ones, rather than having to rely on luck to get "just the perfect die roll." Interestingly, The One Ring's damage modeling is something of a hybrid between D&D and Savage Worlds. Every character has a "vitality" pool that can be exhausted through combat damage, fatigue, and exposure to Shadow. Once a character's vitality hits 0, the character gains the "wounded" condition, which has lots of unhealthy consequences, which doesn't go away without extended rest (a week or more, if I remember correctly). At that point, the character's vitality resets, but their pool maximum is lowered, and if their vitality hits zero again, the character dies. Ultimately what I'm wondering, is for those of you familiar with other systems, how does the damage modeling for those systems impact combat pace and allow for higher (or lower) character engagement? I'd particularly be interested in hearing about stuff like Rolemaster, Runequest, or HERO, systems that I've heard of and have read bits and pieces of, but would never purchase material for them because I know I'll simply never play them. I'm considering adding an "escalation die" house rule to enemy combatants, where an enemy has a timer/countdown value equal to their vigor die. If an attack does damage but doesn't beat the enemy's toughness, the attack instead reduces the enemy's escalation die. Once the die reaches zero, the next successful attack on the enemy causes a shaken condition REGARDLESS of damage dealt on the attack, and a wound will be caused if the damage meets the enemy's base toughness. Escalation damage ONLY applies when an attack succeeds but the damage roll fails to exceed the enemy's toughness. [/QUOTE]
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