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Could SCAG be power creep?
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<blockquote data-quote="brehobit" data-source="post: 6817996" data-attributes="member: 12032"><p>Actually, I'd say mostly the subclasses are weaker than the PHB. And most of the crunch is SCAG is also par or below par IMO <em>in the general case</em>. But as Psikerlord says, more options create more possibilities. For certain games, some of these will be quite powerful. I'm going to discuss these in terms of min-maxing and mostly focus on combat since that's generally what we mean my power creep. </p><p></p><p>Let's go through what I _think_ is all the crunch:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #00FF00">Duergar</span></strong>: The resistence is nice. The spells are very nice. I'd say a pretty big upgrade over the other Dwarf options. But it comes at a pretty serious price--sunlight sensitivity. With the stat bonus to STR and CON, you are almost certainly looking at a melee martial type where attack rolls are common. And so if direct sunlight is even mildly common, you're hosed. I'm having a hard time coming up with a reasonable build that doesn't suffer more than it gains. <strong>Unless</strong> you are playing a game where you just never get direct sunlight (pure underdark for example) in which case Duergar are a pretty solid win as the other two dwarven options are at best "eh". </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #FF0000">Ghostwise Halflings</span></strong>: Certainly cool, but from a raw combat viewpoint, probably the weakest of the options. Potentially being able to talk to nearly anything, and to do so silently, is huge. But in most games it isn't going to be a big deal.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #FFA07A">Svirfneblin</span></strong>: Sure, you can get some cool stuff with a feat, but feats are really (really) useful. I'd say potentially on par--and better if you really don't have a good choice for a feat and you don't need a stat upgrade (really?), but that seems rare.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #FFD700">Half-elves</span></strong> did get better. Some of these options are a very nice trade, depending on the game, for 2 skills (Drow magic, swim speed). For a water-based game, the swim speed is crazy good (lots of fun things come with that). And the Drow magic is just probably better than 2 skills in a hack-and-slash game. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #FFD700">Tiefling</span></strong> options are great. The wings are potentially amazing. Devil's tongue is nice, but not really better than the base option. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Arcana Domain</strong>: Spell Breaker is very nice indeed. <s>And starting at 8th level, eldritch blast gets to be huge.</s> But the domain spells are mostly weak (magic missile is nice, but that's about it). A nice addition, but not, IMO, a clearly better option than all the rest.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #FF0000">Purple Dragon Knight</span></strong>. This sub-class is way underpowered, at least until 10th level when it move up to "eh". I'd say it's by far the weakest fighter subclass. Cool, but the others (including Champion which I'm not a big fan of) are stronger.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: #FFD700">Way of the Long Death</span></strong>: Nice. I like the PHB monk options better, but Touch of Death could be very nice in a game where the DM tends to throw around lots of weaker creatures rather than a big bad. Hour of Reaping uses an action but not a ki point and has a lot of potential given the area of effect. Mastery of Death is just plain old broken in many situations. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Way of the Sun Soul</strong>: Nice to have range options, but nothing special. I think open hand is generally better unless you really need ranged attacks on a regular basis.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Oath the the Crown</strong>: Spirit Guardians are great, as a spell options, but it comes pretty late (9th level). Turn the Tide is nice--potentially very nice. And the 20th level capstone is nice. But still, about on par I'd say.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Mastermind</strong>. The 3rd level power is really (really) nice. After that, there isn't much "there" there (at least from a combat viewpoint). I'd say great at lower levels (where other subclasses give more options AND where allies typically have only one attack so granting advantage on one attack is much bigger), but eh at higher ones.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Swashbuckler</strong>: Good, especially in a parties where you don't have a melee buddy for some reason. But I like the PHB options as much or more.</li> </ul><p></p><p>There are a few others, and I may revisit this, but i'm off to bed. But yeah, more creep than I thought, but I'd say mostly more options, and other than maybe the half-elf and thiefling vareints, there wasn't anything I felt would commonly be a better option than the PHB.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="brehobit, post: 6817996, member: 12032"] Actually, I'd say mostly the subclasses are weaker than the PHB. And most of the crunch is SCAG is also par or below par IMO [i]in the general case[/i]. But as Psikerlord says, more options create more possibilities. For certain games, some of these will be quite powerful. I'm going to discuss these in terms of min-maxing and mostly focus on combat since that's generally what we mean my power creep. Let's go through what I _think_ is all the crunch: [LIST] [*][B][COLOR="#00FF00"]Duergar[/COLOR][/B]: The resistence is nice. The spells are very nice. I'd say a pretty big upgrade over the other Dwarf options. But it comes at a pretty serious price--sunlight sensitivity. With the stat bonus to STR and CON, you are almost certainly looking at a melee martial type where attack rolls are common. And so if direct sunlight is even mildly common, you're hosed. I'm having a hard time coming up with a reasonable build that doesn't suffer more than it gains. [B]Unless[/B] you are playing a game where you just never get direct sunlight (pure underdark for example) in which case Duergar are a pretty solid win as the other two dwarven options are at best "eh". [*][B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Ghostwise Halflings[/COLOR][/B]: Certainly cool, but from a raw combat viewpoint, probably the weakest of the options. Potentially being able to talk to nearly anything, and to do so silently, is huge. But in most games it isn't going to be a big deal. [*][B][COLOR="#FFA07A"]Svirfneblin[/COLOR][/B]: Sure, you can get some cool stuff with a feat, but feats are really (really) useful. I'd say potentially on par--and better if you really don't have a good choice for a feat and you don't need a stat upgrade (really?), but that seems rare. [*][B][COLOR="#FFD700"]Half-elves[/COLOR][/B] did get better. Some of these options are a very nice trade, depending on the game, for 2 skills (Drow magic, swim speed). For a water-based game, the swim speed is crazy good (lots of fun things come with that). And the Drow magic is just probably better than 2 skills in a hack-and-slash game. [*][B][COLOR="#FFD700"]Tiefling[/COLOR][/B] options are great. The wings are potentially amazing. Devil's tongue is nice, but not really better than the base option. [*][B]Arcana Domain[/b]: Spell Breaker is very nice indeed. [s]And starting at 8th level, eldritch blast gets to be huge.[/s] But the domain spells are mostly weak (magic missile is nice, but that's about it). A nice addition, but not, IMO, a clearly better option than all the rest. [*][B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Purple Dragon Knight[/COLOR][/b]. This sub-class is way underpowered, at least until 10th level when it move up to "eh". I'd say it's by far the weakest fighter subclass. Cool, but the others (including Champion which I'm not a big fan of) are stronger. [*][B][COLOR="#FFD700"]Way of the Long Death[/COLOR][/B]: Nice. I like the PHB monk options better, but Touch of Death could be very nice in a game where the DM tends to throw around lots of weaker creatures rather than a big bad. Hour of Reaping uses an action but not a ki point and has a lot of potential given the area of effect. Mastery of Death is just plain old broken in many situations. [*][B]Way of the Sun Soul[/B]: Nice to have range options, but nothing special. I think open hand is generally better unless you really need ranged attacks on a regular basis. [*][B]Oath the the Crown[/B]: Spirit Guardians are great, as a spell options, but it comes pretty late (9th level). Turn the Tide is nice--potentially very nice. And the 20th level capstone is nice. But still, about on par I'd say. [*][B]Mastermind[/b]. The 3rd level power is really (really) nice. After that, there isn't much "there" there (at least from a combat viewpoint). I'd say great at lower levels (where other subclasses give more options AND where allies typically have only one attack so granting advantage on one attack is much bigger), but eh at higher ones. [*][B]Swashbuckler[/b]: Good, especially in a parties where you don't have a melee buddy for some reason. But I like the PHB options as much or more. [/list] There are a few others, and I may revisit this, but i'm off to bed. But yeah, more creep than I thought, but I'd say mostly more options, and other than maybe the half-elf and thiefling vareints, there wasn't anything I felt would commonly be a better option than the PHB. [/QUOTE]
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