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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 7657000" data-attributes="member: 1210"><p>I am? Sorry- I'm not sure which one you're referring to, exactly; could you clarify this point for me?</p><p></p><p>If you mean the 'first wave', I didn't mention it because it's the only period when I feel like GH was given a fair chance, but I also don't count the adventures, with the exception of T1-4, as really "Greyhawk material" so much as "adventures that just happen to be set in Greyhawk". </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But GH not only never reached that point, it never even <em>approached</em> it. I mean, there are very few actual GH sourcebooks (unless you count adventures, which I'm not), and those are scattered across three editions and are VERY inconsistent in quality (to be generous). </p><p></p><p>Really, we never had a sourcebook to detail any major areas of the World of Greyhawk in any detail until, what, some lousy 2e softbound on the Scarlet Brotherhood with super-crappy art and no real passion to it? Unless, again, you count the City of Greyhawk boxed set, which I guess I should, but that came out when TSR was floundering and trying to support fifty lines of often crappy products at the same time- an approach which meant, at least at my FLGS at the time, they would get one copy of 1/5 the released material in and hope to God that someone would buy it, and half the time they ended up with Jakandor or something sitting on the shelf forever instead. The whole model that TSR was using by that time was counterproductive to actually building sales, IMHO. (See the famous Ryan Dancey article about warehouses full of material that never went anywhere.)</p><p></p><p>I don't think a static timeline is necessarily the best approach to a setting, but I think there was plenty to be fleshed out without advancing the timeline; and I further think that there was plenty of room to advance the timeline without burning huge elements of the setting down (GH Wars, I'm looking at you).</p><p></p><p>I mean, we could've had a Great Kingdom sourcebook; a Wild Coast sourcebook; a Lords of the Isles sourcebook; a (good) Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook; a Furyondy & Veluna & the Shield Lands sourcebook; a Bandit Kingdoms sourcebook; a Geoff & the lands of the southwest sourcebook; a Perrenland sourcebook; a Horned Society sourcebook; a Lands of Iuz sourcebook; a detailed religion sourcebook (c.f. Faiths and Avatars); etc. None of this stuff (other than the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook) ever got made. </p><p></p><p>Compare to the dozens of "Detailing This Region in Excruciating Detail" sourcebooks of 1e and 2e FR material, and it seems like there was a huge disparity in effort, which I suspect had to do with the "Screw Gygax and the world he rode in on" attitude of some in TSR back at the time. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hmm. See, I found the original folio, and then the WoGH boxed set, to be very inspiring. But this is a matter of taste. I felt like every area had something going on in it that I wanted to explore. "Oh, you're going to Stonefist? Cool, barbarian wrestling match time!" But YMMV on this. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think there's room to argue that the internal politics/Gygax-hate created the bad sales. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But again, at least with RttToH, it isn't really a GH adventure so much as an adventure that just happens to be set in GH. There's really nothing in there that's tied to the world except for a few passing mentions of geography. Even the new Starter Set is tied more heavily to the FR than that, with factions and so forth. </p><p></p><p>I can't speak to the Star Cairn modules, as I never saw them. Maybe this is the era I missed, actually! </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, I did see one copy of this on the shelf at my FLGS once, and it looked pretty good. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All agreed here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 7657000, member: 1210"] I am? Sorry- I'm not sure which one you're referring to, exactly; could you clarify this point for me? If you mean the 'first wave', I didn't mention it because it's the only period when I feel like GH was given a fair chance, but I also don't count the adventures, with the exception of T1-4, as really "Greyhawk material" so much as "adventures that just happen to be set in Greyhawk". But GH not only never reached that point, it never even [i]approached[/i] it. I mean, there are very few actual GH sourcebooks (unless you count adventures, which I'm not), and those are scattered across three editions and are VERY inconsistent in quality (to be generous). Really, we never had a sourcebook to detail any major areas of the World of Greyhawk in any detail until, what, some lousy 2e softbound on the Scarlet Brotherhood with super-crappy art and no real passion to it? Unless, again, you count the City of Greyhawk boxed set, which I guess I should, but that came out when TSR was floundering and trying to support fifty lines of often crappy products at the same time- an approach which meant, at least at my FLGS at the time, they would get one copy of 1/5 the released material in and hope to God that someone would buy it, and half the time they ended up with Jakandor or something sitting on the shelf forever instead. The whole model that TSR was using by that time was counterproductive to actually building sales, IMHO. (See the famous Ryan Dancey article about warehouses full of material that never went anywhere.) I don't think a static timeline is necessarily the best approach to a setting, but I think there was plenty to be fleshed out without advancing the timeline; and I further think that there was plenty of room to advance the timeline without burning huge elements of the setting down (GH Wars, I'm looking at you). I mean, we could've had a Great Kingdom sourcebook; a Wild Coast sourcebook; a Lords of the Isles sourcebook; a (good) Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook; a Furyondy & Veluna & the Shield Lands sourcebook; a Bandit Kingdoms sourcebook; a Geoff & the lands of the southwest sourcebook; a Perrenland sourcebook; a Horned Society sourcebook; a Lands of Iuz sourcebook; a detailed religion sourcebook (c.f. Faiths and Avatars); etc. None of this stuff (other than the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook) ever got made. Compare to the dozens of "Detailing This Region in Excruciating Detail" sourcebooks of 1e and 2e FR material, and it seems like there was a huge disparity in effort, which I suspect had to do with the "Screw Gygax and the world he rode in on" attitude of some in TSR back at the time. Hmm. See, I found the original folio, and then the WoGH boxed set, to be very inspiring. But this is a matter of taste. I felt like every area had something going on in it that I wanted to explore. "Oh, you're going to Stonefist? Cool, barbarian wrestling match time!" But YMMV on this. I think there's room to argue that the internal politics/Gygax-hate created the bad sales. But again, at least with RttToH, it isn't really a GH adventure so much as an adventure that just happens to be set in GH. There's really nothing in there that's tied to the world except for a few passing mentions of geography. Even the new Starter Set is tied more heavily to the FR than that, with factions and so forth. I can't speak to the Star Cairn modules, as I never saw them. Maybe this is the era I missed, actually! Now, I did see one copy of this on the shelf at my FLGS once, and it looked pretty good. All agreed here. [/QUOTE]
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