D&D General Curated monster lists - world building

hgjertsen

Explorer
(sic) I have made (and will continue to make) exceptions for a world where there obviously IS a vision that is stated out the gate and is handshook on by all parties involved. If I say I'm running Theros, I'm under as much obligation to not put in a beholder as the PCs are in not playing a gnome. The goal is to keep to MTG and Greek myth species, and that should be respected. In such cases, the DM is under as much limitation in his options as the player is. This thread is really a good test to see when DMs opt to do this vs ones who use world building as a tool to limit player options without likewise limiting their own.
Welllll yeah I guess but the DM is not really obligated to have a consistent world which is as real behind the scenes and as painstakingly detailed as possible in order to convey great themes and run a good campaign. My personal taste in monsters is varied but I can also recognize the thematic relevance of certain enemies, not just posit that my own taste is thematically sound. If the players and I have agreed to run a Horror game without whimsical elements, things like Flumphs seem pretty reasonable to exclude.

Personally, I don't really like curtailing player options that much though, at least not anymore. I figure I'd rather let the player write dragonborn into my world and come up with a cool backstory than ruin everyone's fun to keep my worldbuilding as pristine as possible.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
Welllll yeah I guess but the DM is not really obligated to have a consistent world which is as real behind the scenes and as painstakingly detailed as possible in order to convey great themes and run a good campaign.
Obligated? No, they aren't. But if the reason you don't have haregon or dragonborn in your world is because "I created my world in 1983 and only the races that existed in 1983 exist in it" I would naturally respond with "oh cool, that's also true of any monster made after 1983, right?"

Anyway, my point was only to say that I can respect a DM who kitchen-sinks, and I can respect a DM who limits everything that is in their world to keep to a strict theme, tone, or similar, but I'm less respecting of the DM who went through chapter 1 of Monsters of the Multiverse with a black sharpie Xing out PC options, but did not do likewise with chapter 2 because they're the DM and they can use whatever they want.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Obligated? No, they aren't. But if the reason you don't have haregon or dragonborn in your world is because "I created my world in 1983 and only the races that existed in 1983 exist in it" I would naturally respond with "oh cool, that's also true of any monster made after 1983, right?"

Anyway, my point was only to say that I can respect a DM who kitchen-sinks, and I can respect a DM who limits everything that is in their world to keep to a strict theme, tone, or similar, but I'm less respecting of the DM who went through chapter 1 of Monsters of the Multiverse with a black sharpie Xing out PC options, but did not do likewise with chapter 2 because they're the DM and they can use whatever they want.
Yeah very much this, I like to keep cultural themes consistent so the celtic inspired area has celtic creatures (and landscapes), the Slavic area has creatures from slavic myth, the african-inspired area has african monsters etc.
of course there are some generic creatures and DND itself is premised on kitchen sink.

Besides the feyrealm and nightmare lands mean that things like haregon and Abberations can randomly drop through though. All such creatures are unique however - I do like unique monsters across the board which really helps keep a small pallette but also have access to the whole MM
 
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hgjertsen

Explorer
Obligated? No, they aren't. But if the reason you don't have haregon or dragonborn in your world is because "I created my world in 1983 and only the races that existed in 1983 exist in it" I would naturally respond with "oh cool, that's also true of any monster made after 1983, right?"

Anyway, my point was only to say that I can respect a DM who kitchen-sinks, and I can respect a DM who limits everything that is in their world to keep to a strict theme, tone, or similar, but I'm less respecting of the DM who went through chapter 1 of Monsters of the Multiverse with a black sharpie Xing out PC options, but did not do likewise with chapter 2 because they're the DM and they can use whatever they want.
I think that's sort of a different discussion altogether than what the purpose of establishing a curated list of monsters is in terms of worldbuilding continuity. Having an asshat DM who gets crotchety over player character options but adds every new splatbook's baddies to the world is just a matter of being hypocritical.
 

Voadam

Legend
That doesn't excuse the lack of world-building though if the goal is an internally consistent world.
A goal of an internally consistent world is a distinct issue. There can be different issues applying to curating a PC list versus a DM monster palette in a consistent world.

I can say I am doing an Alice in wonderland where the PC focus is on Alice types going into Wonderland so while weird PC races are stricken, the first NPC is a white rabbit folk in a Feywild full of disparate fanciful types where that is on theme and appropriate.

There are plenty of valid reasons to have a limited PC range and an open world range.

I ran a gothic horror game and limited PC options to classic D&D races (elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.) and very near human variants (planetouched, shifters, etc.) to provide a theme of a fairly normal base perspective that is not too alien and could do a lot of interactions with society for a gothic horror feel. I did not allow dragonborn or such even though they were in the PH. I did not have harengon bandits but I did have a displacer beast at one point.

I was going for a specific theme and tone for the PC perspective which was very different from say my Wildwood game which had a premise of drawing in people from different worlds and the party ended up with a robot, a tiger folk, a lizardfolk, an elan, a tiefling, and others from multiple different worlds. In the gothic horror game if I am going for a theme of humans turned into monsters as a horror element it has a lot more impact if you are a person thinking about turning into an inhuman monster than if you start from the perspective of an inhuman monster.

A group of PCs encounter a gang of haregon bandits along the road. Ok, why are the bandits haregon? Are they natives of the area? If so, why have the PCs not encountered them before? If they are not natives, why are they here and where did they come from? Are the just refugees from a distant land, exiles from the feywild, or just a couple unlucky sods who stumbled through a portal from Gods-know-where? Why are they hostile? Are they feared, hated, or misunderstood? Could they have gone to the next town and gotten honest work if they wanted, or would they be perpetually shunned to a life of banditry on the outside of town? Are they inherently evil (or have a reputation to be)? What do the PCs know about them: lore, rumors, legends, or are they completely clueless? What happens when the PCs stop and parley with them or capture and interrogate them?

All that stems from one encounter. I guess if they act as one-dimensional HP sacks that fight to the death and exist to be defeated and looted, it doesn't matter. Haregon bandits replace goblins, orcs, elves, or human bandits and it works the same. But if the goal is internal consistency, it SHOULD matter.

Now, I think the same situation could easily apply to any PC as well. If a player came to me and asked "Can I play a haregon" I would have to ask the exact same questions. Are the natives or foreigners? Where do they come from? How do others think and react to them? There is trivial difference except perhaps the PC might need a greater amount of depth. (Or they may not, if the answer is "you fell through a portal" then the answer of where you came from is immaterial. What matters is you're here now.)
Right but the impact is fairly different. One band having come through a portal into Lankhmar and these are the only rabbit folk in the world is interesting for that story point.

A PC being the only rabbit folk in Lankhmar has a completely different story impact as it is how most people will interact with that PC again and again. It can turn it into a Cerebus comic feel instead of a Lankhmar one.
Which leads to a situation where most DMs punt on the question on where the NPC haregon bandits come under the hopes it won't matter, but don't on the PC haregon because it always will matter.
Yeah, they will usually say they are not common or whatever and leave it at that. Or use whatever default description there is from the Harengon entry (which I am not familiar with).
My argument is "if you are curtailing things because they don't fit if your vision for the world, that vision should contain monsters as well."
Sure. If you say no orc PCs because there are no orcs on Krynn then there should not be orcs on Krynn at base absent a planar invasion or such.

That would be different though than saying no PC orcs because I run a good guys game and in this world orcs exist but are inherently evil.
Otherwise, such curation isn't being made for consistency or vision as much as for personal taste masquerading as such.
I am not sure why it would be personal taste masquerading as vision. It could be, but that seems to generalize one option into a generality.
Which is a nice way of saying "if you're going to ban haregon, do it because you hate furries and not because you feel they don't match the tone of Greyhawk".
It is perfectly fine to feel they do not match the tone of Greyhawk. I expect many who say harengon do not match the tone of Greyhawk will not put random rabbit folk bandits in their Greyhawk games as an indigenous population in the Shield Lands. Same thing for dragonborn.

They might save such rabbit folk for a one off NPC encounter in Dungeonland though.
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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
A goal of an internally consistent world is a distinct issue. There can be different issues applying to curating a PC list versus a DM monster palette in a consistent world.
The main issue I can think of is that the number of races is a much smaller set than the number of monsters. Even then though, I'll often have an idea of what I don't want to include, I just haven't "officially" ruled things out because the number of monsters is huge.
 

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