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D&D 5e Post-Mortem
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9100163" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>We have reports from actual consultants during the non-public playtest. A significant number of CRs are not actually following the rules (something you can find documentation of elsewhere; that part isn't hidden.) Instead, they were <em>originally</em> defined using the rules...and then private playtesting revealed that those CRs were inappropriate for their level, with no consistent pattern in any direction. The WotC people eyeballed it, guesstimating a more functionally-correct CR. The vast majority of CRs in 5e are no better than an educated guess. This is why most people say not to bother with them; they <em>really are</em> little better than guessing, so you may as well just do whatever you feel like doing and figure it out later.</p><p></p><p>The encounter-building rules are worse than CR, I certainly grant you that, because they necessarily <em>start</em> from flawed inputs. GIGO.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It was certainly wrong about 4e. I have seen the analyses of 5e. This is not a handwavy hypothetical. It's literally looking at what the actual monsters in the MM are and do--often directly comparing them to alternatives (not precisely "equivalents") in 4e in the process. Further, we have things like Matt Colville explicitly talking about how you can make 5e combats better...by adapting monsters from 4e. These are public things, not something secret and hidden.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no experience with PF2e, so I cannot comment on that. I can only comment on what I have seen of 5e combats. And first to last, they have been uniformly some of the most dull experiences I have ever had with combat in a TTRPG. With <em>several</em> different GMs. (Not that I really play 5e eagerly, mind; it's just the only game I've found anyone willing to run for the past, oh, 5+ years? And not one of those campaigns has given me a reason to change my mind.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Whereas I have found them to be absolute trash and indescribably inferior to the equivalents in 4e. To the extent that, if I did not know better, I would <em>genuinely</em> believe you were trolling me by saying this. I know you aren't. I am absolutely certain you are fully serious when you say this. I just have had such utterly terrible experiences with them, both in isolation and in practice, that I struggle to even <em>conceive</em> that someone could have such a good experience with them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I find designing powers a breeze, since the hard part <em>is</em> the hit and damage ranges, and felt that what was in the books was perfectly adequate for getting started on such things. Having some suggestions about ways conditions could interact with the other parts could be useful, I grant that, but in most cases the rules are so transparent it's pretty obvious whether something would be OP or not. 5e is exactly the opposite; the rules are so opaque I can never tell whether something is brokenly overpowered or completely useless without repeated testing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9100163, member: 6790260"] We have reports from actual consultants during the non-public playtest. A significant number of CRs are not actually following the rules (something you can find documentation of elsewhere; that part isn't hidden.) Instead, they were [I]originally[/I] defined using the rules...and then private playtesting revealed that those CRs were inappropriate for their level, with no consistent pattern in any direction. The WotC people eyeballed it, guesstimating a more functionally-correct CR. The vast majority of CRs in 5e are no better than an educated guess. This is why most people say not to bother with them; they [I]really are[/I] little better than guessing, so you may as well just do whatever you feel like doing and figure it out later. The encounter-building rules are worse than CR, I certainly grant you that, because they necessarily [I]start[/I] from flawed inputs. GIGO. It was certainly wrong about 4e. I have seen the analyses of 5e. This is not a handwavy hypothetical. It's literally looking at what the actual monsters in the MM are and do--often directly comparing them to alternatives (not precisely "equivalents") in 4e in the process. Further, we have things like Matt Colville explicitly talking about how you can make 5e combats better...by adapting monsters from 4e. These are public things, not something secret and hidden. I have no experience with PF2e, so I cannot comment on that. I can only comment on what I have seen of 5e combats. And first to last, they have been uniformly some of the most dull experiences I have ever had with combat in a TTRPG. With [I]several[/I] different GMs. (Not that I really play 5e eagerly, mind; it's just the only game I've found anyone willing to run for the past, oh, 5+ years? And not one of those campaigns has given me a reason to change my mind.) Whereas I have found them to be absolute trash and indescribably inferior to the equivalents in 4e. To the extent that, if I did not know better, I would [I]genuinely[/I] believe you were trolling me by saying this. I know you aren't. I am absolutely certain you are fully serious when you say this. I just have had such utterly terrible experiences with them, both in isolation and in practice, that I struggle to even [I]conceive[/I] that someone could have such a good experience with them. I find designing powers a breeze, since the hard part [I]is[/I] the hit and damage ranges, and felt that what was in the books was perfectly adequate for getting started on such things. Having some suggestions about ways conditions could interact with the other parts could be useful, I grant that, but in most cases the rules are so transparent it's pretty obvious whether something would be OP or not. 5e is exactly the opposite; the rules are so opaque I can never tell whether something is brokenly overpowered or completely useless without repeated testing. [/QUOTE]
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