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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8851595" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>My first thought is that this topic is so incredibly complicated that it requires almost a book length treatment.</p><p></p><p>First, the DL series began to come out in 1984 - which is before the end of your cut off period. And the DL series was very highly regarded at the time and remains highly regarded today. Granted, they require an experienced hand to run them, but if you treat them as a campaign setting and the suggestions that they give you for keep the story moving toward a conclusion as guidelines that require skill to implement, then they are an amazing gaming experience. The adventure locations are amazing. The combat is amazing. The scenarios are amazing. The depth of the story line is amazing. The campaign is epic. You just have to make it your own. In the hands of a novice DM taking everything literally they become a railroad. </p><p></p><p>While it is somewhat true that TSR learned the wrong lessons from this, the main reason that the subsequent era failed was the quality of the writing declined and not that there is a magic formula like "dungeon crawl good, narrative bad" or "grim and gritty good, heroic bad". That's Hollywood producer level of understanding wrong, and surely, we as nerds are smarter than that. </p><p></p><p>Also, some of the early next era is still reasonably well regarded. The Chronicle modules extend into 1986. For example, many people like Night's Dark Terror (1986) or Feast of Goblyns (1989) or Vecna Lives! (1990). The really bad adventures are in this period set in the Forgotten Realms and while many of them are railroads and worse railroads where the NPCs are doing all the important things and you are just an audience, but they aren't limited to that. Haunted Halls of Eveningstar is a piece of trash, and it's anything but a railroad. Indeed, it's not even a dungeon crawl or an adventure. It's hard to describe how much of a mess it is.</p><p></p><p>So for me what really starts happening is about 1986, TSR runs out of steam, and has done all the obvious things and starts running out of imagination. You can see this through 1986 and 1987 as the quality of the stuff that isn't railroady adventure paths is also going downhill. </p><p></p><p>For me then, it about 1987 where the Golden Age comes to an end and not because of some huge shift in focus, but just because the next bit doesn't have a lot of high points. There was plenty of forgettable stupidity before 1987, but afterwards there wasn't really anything good to offset that.</p><p></p><p>For me this is the beginning of the D&D Dark Age, and it extends from about 1987 (it might not be fair but let's date it to the printing of Under Illefarn) all the way to about the Silver Anniversary in 1999. The good stuff here is mostly early on and it gets buried under the trash. D&D gets revived noticeably by the 25th anniversary stuff like Return to the Tomb of Horrors, Rod of Seven Parts, and Axe of the Dwarven Lords. They aren't perfect by any means - Skip's Goblins have Tucker's Kobold syndrome - but the writing quality has come back, the commitment to quality has come back, and there is again imagination in TSR land. Of course, by this point it's too late to save the company.</p><p></p><p>3e brings a ton of quality with it. Whispering Cairn is a brilliant module. Sunlit Citadel is a brilliant module. Of Sound Mind is a brilliant module. Mad God's Key is a brilliant adventure. Forge of Fury is good. But you notice how most of this stuff is for 1st level or at least low level characters? Yeah, that's the problem in the 3e era. Really big ambitions. Really big adventure paths. Great beginnings and yet it fizzles in the end. Bits and pieces of the Adventure Paths are good, but in my experience with them large sections are uninspired or badly designed. I wouldn't want to run the whole thing necessarily. To grindy. To much focused on that 1-20 experience even at the expense of story or gameplay.</p><p></p><p>After that era I mostly stopped caring, but 5e has again seen a resurgence of what looks to me to be quality modules in the big hardcover format. I haven't played them, but I'm impressed by what I've seen of The Wild Beyond The Witchlight, Lost Mines Of Phandelver, Out Of The Abyss, Tomb Of Annihilation and Curse Of Strahd. This might be the best era in terms of writing quality since the Golden Age in the early 1980's.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8851595, member: 4937"] My first thought is that this topic is so incredibly complicated that it requires almost a book length treatment. First, the DL series began to come out in 1984 - which is before the end of your cut off period. And the DL series was very highly regarded at the time and remains highly regarded today. Granted, they require an experienced hand to run them, but if you treat them as a campaign setting and the suggestions that they give you for keep the story moving toward a conclusion as guidelines that require skill to implement, then they are an amazing gaming experience. The adventure locations are amazing. The combat is amazing. The scenarios are amazing. The depth of the story line is amazing. The campaign is epic. You just have to make it your own. In the hands of a novice DM taking everything literally they become a railroad. While it is somewhat true that TSR learned the wrong lessons from this, the main reason that the subsequent era failed was the quality of the writing declined and not that there is a magic formula like "dungeon crawl good, narrative bad" or "grim and gritty good, heroic bad". That's Hollywood producer level of understanding wrong, and surely, we as nerds are smarter than that. Also, some of the early next era is still reasonably well regarded. The Chronicle modules extend into 1986. For example, many people like Night's Dark Terror (1986) or Feast of Goblyns (1989) or Vecna Lives! (1990). The really bad adventures are in this period set in the Forgotten Realms and while many of them are railroads and worse railroads where the NPCs are doing all the important things and you are just an audience, but they aren't limited to that. Haunted Halls of Eveningstar is a piece of trash, and it's anything but a railroad. Indeed, it's not even a dungeon crawl or an adventure. It's hard to describe how much of a mess it is. So for me what really starts happening is about 1986, TSR runs out of steam, and has done all the obvious things and starts running out of imagination. You can see this through 1986 and 1987 as the quality of the stuff that isn't railroady adventure paths is also going downhill. For me then, it about 1987 where the Golden Age comes to an end and not because of some huge shift in focus, but just because the next bit doesn't have a lot of high points. There was plenty of forgettable stupidity before 1987, but afterwards there wasn't really anything good to offset that. For me this is the beginning of the D&D Dark Age, and it extends from about 1987 (it might not be fair but let's date it to the printing of Under Illefarn) all the way to about the Silver Anniversary in 1999. The good stuff here is mostly early on and it gets buried under the trash. D&D gets revived noticeably by the 25th anniversary stuff like Return to the Tomb of Horrors, Rod of Seven Parts, and Axe of the Dwarven Lords. They aren't perfect by any means - Skip's Goblins have Tucker's Kobold syndrome - but the writing quality has come back, the commitment to quality has come back, and there is again imagination in TSR land. Of course, by this point it's too late to save the company. 3e brings a ton of quality with it. Whispering Cairn is a brilliant module. Sunlit Citadel is a brilliant module. Of Sound Mind is a brilliant module. Mad God's Key is a brilliant adventure. Forge of Fury is good. But you notice how most of this stuff is for 1st level or at least low level characters? Yeah, that's the problem in the 3e era. Really big ambitions. Really big adventure paths. Great beginnings and yet it fizzles in the end. Bits and pieces of the Adventure Paths are good, but in my experience with them large sections are uninspired or badly designed. I wouldn't want to run the whole thing necessarily. To grindy. To much focused on that 1-20 experience even at the expense of story or gameplay. After that era I mostly stopped caring, but 5e has again seen a resurgence of what looks to me to be quality modules in the big hardcover format. I haven't played them, but I'm impressed by what I've seen of The Wild Beyond The Witchlight, Lost Mines Of Phandelver, Out Of The Abyss, Tomb Of Annihilation and Curse Of Strahd. This might be the best era in terms of writing quality since the Golden Age in the early 1980's. [/QUOTE]
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