Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
D&D Has Never Been Suitable for Generic Fantasy
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Doug McCrae" data-source="post: 5926735" data-attributes="member: 21169"><p>I'm going to have another stab at answering this question, in the context of what it is to be a generic fantasy roleplaying game. I believe I've been able to identify four separate meanings:</p><p></p><p><strong>1) Vanilla Fantasy</strong></p><p>It's synonymous with 'vanilla fantasy'. The ruleset supports the most commonplace, most cliched elements of fantasy fiction. This is what I meant when I answered 'Tolkien' upthread, as Tolkien, particularly Lord of the Rings, has had so many imitators, and, more than any other work or author, comes closest to defining fantasy. Arthurian legend is almost up there with Tolkien imho.</p><p></p><p>So a generic fantasy rpg, in this sense, would provide support for – a setting resembling medieval Europe, Good versus Evil, dark lords, epic quests, wise old wizards, wicked enchanters, elves, dwarves, orcs, dragons, giants, macguffin-y magic items, magic swords, knights, and distressed damsels.</p><p></p><p><strong>2) Toolbox: We Have It All</strong></p><p>The ruleset supports a great many specific fantasy elements, that serve as a toolbox which can be used to create a far more parsimonious world. For example one can take D&D and, by removing many pieces, primarily monsters and high-powered magic, construct a world that resembles Middle-Earth.</p><p></p><p>Many D&Ders do indeed use the game in this way. Because D&D contains so many diverse elements – monsters, magic items, spells, classes - particularly if splatbooks and third party products are used to support such areas of play as alternate magic systems, it can serve as a toolbox and is thus generic. It is generic in the sense that, by stripping away most of its potential content, it can be used to build a more specific world.</p><p></p><p><strong>3) Abstract Rules</strong></p><p>The rules are, on some level, abstract, permitting multiple, more specific, interpretations. Hero System is generic in this way, as I mentioned upthread, as it separates powers from what it calls special effects AKA flavour text. This is also true of 4e D&D, with its decoupling of rules and flavour text (and encouragement to re-flavour) and it's also a popular interpretation of many aspects of 3e D&D. By this interpretation a class or feat in 3e is much like a power in Hero - it describes an effect, but not the means by which that effect is achieved in the game world. Ends, but not means. It should be noted that Hero goes quite a bit further than 3e in this respect, and that not every class or feat in 3e is equally susceptible to this interpretation.</p><p></p><p>It's sometimes said that generic fantasy doesn't exist because in any given campaign or example of play, the setting or the events transpiring will be specific. Not so, in my view. Roleplaying games, even in actual play, may remain in a Twilight Zone. Like quantum particles, elements may never move from the general to the specific. Examples include saving throws in 1e AD&D, hit points in 1e AD&D, pre-d20 D&D's 1 minute combat rounds, and combat in Tunnels & Trolls (which is highly abstract). It's true that the way a PC makes a save might be determined – the DM or player may describe the way a thief leaps into the nook containing the bronze elephantine statue to escape the dragon's breath. But the point is – the way the save is made may not be determined, and the game would proceed just fine. It would continue to be abstract, or generic.</p><p></p><p>And of course, this is true of all secondary worlds, even the most detailed. Compared to the real world, practically everything remains undetermined.</p><p></p><p><strong>4) Toolbox: Build It Out Of Bits</strong></p><p>The ruleset is a different kind of toolkit, allowing final, game-useable units to be constructed out of base elements. Hero is also generic in this way. One could, for instance, build a Vancian wizard in Hero, but it wouldn't be straightforward. A fireball spell could be built by taking the base power Energy Blast, giving it the advantages Area Effect, and the limitations Charges (once per day), Gestures, Incantation and No Knockback.</p><p></p><p>I don't think D&D is generic in this way. It would be if, instead of the Monster Manual for example, there were just monster creation guidelines, without any specific monsters.</p><p></p><p><strong>Conclusion</strong></p><p>Somewhat surprisingly, D&D is more generic than I thought, as it meets the criteria for senses #1 thru #3. #3 is only true of d20 D&D however, and #2 is most true of 3e, with all the splatbooks and third party content (and a bit true of late 2e).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Doug McCrae, post: 5926735, member: 21169"] I'm going to have another stab at answering this question, in the context of what it is to be a generic fantasy roleplaying game. I believe I've been able to identify four separate meanings: [B]1) Vanilla Fantasy[/B] It's synonymous with 'vanilla fantasy'. The ruleset supports the most commonplace, most cliched elements of fantasy fiction. This is what I meant when I answered 'Tolkien' upthread, as Tolkien, particularly Lord of the Rings, has had so many imitators, and, more than any other work or author, comes closest to defining fantasy. Arthurian legend is almost up there with Tolkien imho. So a generic fantasy rpg, in this sense, would provide support for – a setting resembling medieval Europe, Good versus Evil, dark lords, epic quests, wise old wizards, wicked enchanters, elves, dwarves, orcs, dragons, giants, macguffin-y magic items, magic swords, knights, and distressed damsels. [B]2) Toolbox: We Have It All[/B] The ruleset supports a great many specific fantasy elements, that serve as a toolbox which can be used to create a far more parsimonious world. For example one can take D&D and, by removing many pieces, primarily monsters and high-powered magic, construct a world that resembles Middle-Earth. Many D&Ders do indeed use the game in this way. Because D&D contains so many diverse elements – monsters, magic items, spells, classes - particularly if splatbooks and third party products are used to support such areas of play as alternate magic systems, it can serve as a toolbox and is thus generic. It is generic in the sense that, by stripping away most of its potential content, it can be used to build a more specific world. [B]3) Abstract Rules[/B] The rules are, on some level, abstract, permitting multiple, more specific, interpretations. Hero System is generic in this way, as I mentioned upthread, as it separates powers from what it calls special effects AKA flavour text. This is also true of 4e D&D, with its decoupling of rules and flavour text (and encouragement to re-flavour) and it's also a popular interpretation of many aspects of 3e D&D. By this interpretation a class or feat in 3e is much like a power in Hero - it describes an effect, but not the means by which that effect is achieved in the game world. Ends, but not means. It should be noted that Hero goes quite a bit further than 3e in this respect, and that not every class or feat in 3e is equally susceptible to this interpretation. It's sometimes said that generic fantasy doesn't exist because in any given campaign or example of play, the setting or the events transpiring will be specific. Not so, in my view. Roleplaying games, even in actual play, may remain in a Twilight Zone. Like quantum particles, elements may never move from the general to the specific. Examples include saving throws in 1e AD&D, hit points in 1e AD&D, pre-d20 D&D's 1 minute combat rounds, and combat in Tunnels & Trolls (which is highly abstract). It's true that the way a PC makes a save might be determined – the DM or player may describe the way a thief leaps into the nook containing the bronze elephantine statue to escape the dragon's breath. But the point is – the way the save is made may not be determined, and the game would proceed just fine. It would continue to be abstract, or generic. And of course, this is true of all secondary worlds, even the most detailed. Compared to the real world, practically everything remains undetermined. [B]4) Toolbox: Build It Out Of Bits[/B] The ruleset is a different kind of toolkit, allowing final, game-useable units to be constructed out of base elements. Hero is also generic in this way. One could, for instance, build a Vancian wizard in Hero, but it wouldn't be straightforward. A fireball spell could be built by taking the base power Energy Blast, giving it the advantages Area Effect, and the limitations Charges (once per day), Gestures, Incantation and No Knockback. I don't think D&D is generic in this way. It would be if, instead of the Monster Manual for example, there were just monster creation guidelines, without any specific monsters. [B]Conclusion[/B] Somewhat surprisingly, D&D is more generic than I thought, as it meets the criteria for senses #1 thru #3. #3 is only true of d20 D&D however, and #2 is most true of 3e, with all the splatbooks and third party content (and a bit true of late 2e). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
D&D Has Never Been Suitable for Generic Fantasy
Top