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D&D is a Team Sport. What are the positions?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9177765" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>If you can't explain it to someone who disagrees with you, is that a reflection on the person disagreeing, or on the idea that legitimately cannot be communicated? Because I'm inclined to say the latter.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>What</em> advice? I'm not asking to be a Wizard. I'm asking to be a Fighter that is actually <em>good</em> and <em>effective</em> without using magic. YOU'RE the one who keeps saying that the one and only possible way I could ever be happy is to be a spellcaster. I don't want that! I don't WANT to be a spellcaster. I want to be someone who never--not even once!--casts a spell, <em>and yet gets to contribute as much to the party's success as the spellcasters do</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Where is this "fail" coming from? I said that it tells you something which is effective. That doesn't mean literally everything else is <em>in</em>effective. That's an assumption you inserted into it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which part, exactly?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I genuinely thought this was a serious comment, not a joke. Still not sure what's supposed to be humorous here.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, because someone else being better in every way at fixing the group's problems <em>definitely</em> means we should be having BMX Bandit solve them instead while Angel Summoner takes a coffee break.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Do things that actively hinder your party" is not a great selling point.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ditto. You're not selling me on the concept here. If anything, you're making it sound <em>worse.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p>None of these three points will ever happen. They are simply unpopular with players--and always will be, because that's literally the whole point. These are player-frustration features--what I have been calling "tedium"--used to gate power. But players can, and will, optimize the fun out of games. They will do the tedious in order to get the power. Consistently. You've got a long history of playing the game; surely you have seen this firsthand, many a time even.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly. There is, of course, a concern for diminishing returns; sometimes it really is best to express multiple archetypes under the same umbrella. Neither of us is saying that there should be anything like, say, four dozen classes. But trying to shoehorn 17 different things into one universal basket is a losing move. Most of them will fail to actually capture the spirit of the thing, for exactly the reason that the Eldritch Knight fails to capture what being a Wizard should be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9177765, member: 6790260"] If you can't explain it to someone who disagrees with you, is that a reflection on the person disagreeing, or on the idea that legitimately cannot be communicated? Because I'm inclined to say the latter. [I]What[/I] advice? I'm not asking to be a Wizard. I'm asking to be a Fighter that is actually [I]good[/I] and [I]effective[/I] without using magic. YOU'RE the one who keeps saying that the one and only possible way I could ever be happy is to be a spellcaster. I don't want that! I don't WANT to be a spellcaster. I want to be someone who never--not even once!--casts a spell, [I]and yet gets to contribute as much to the party's success as the spellcasters do[/I]. Where is this "fail" coming from? I said that it tells you something which is effective. That doesn't mean literally everything else is [I]in[/I]effective. That's an assumption you inserted into it. Which part, exactly? I genuinely thought this was a serious comment, not a joke. Still not sure what's supposed to be humorous here. Yes, because someone else being better in every way at fixing the group's problems [I]definitely[/I] means we should be having BMX Bandit solve them instead while Angel Summoner takes a coffee break. "Do things that actively hinder your party" is not a great selling point. Ditto. You're not selling me on the concept here. If anything, you're making it sound [I]worse.[/I] None of these three points will ever happen. They are simply unpopular with players--and always will be, because that's literally the whole point. These are player-frustration features--what I have been calling "tedium"--used to gate power. But players can, and will, optimize the fun out of games. They will do the tedious in order to get the power. Consistently. You've got a long history of playing the game; surely you have seen this firsthand, many a time even. Exactly. There is, of course, a concern for diminishing returns; sometimes it really is best to express multiple archetypes under the same umbrella. Neither of us is saying that there should be anything like, say, four dozen classes. But trying to shoehorn 17 different things into one universal basket is a losing move. Most of them will fail to actually capture the spirit of the thing, for exactly the reason that the Eldritch Knight fails to capture what being a Wizard should be. [/QUOTE]
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