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D&D's Evolution: Rulings, Rules, and "System Matters"
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8398782" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I'm starting with this, because maybe it affects how we view the FKR stuff.</p><p></p><p>I actually don't see any hints of collaboration in the FKR material I've looked at - it all emphasises the GM authority over backstory and resolution. And when I think of transparency over illusionism I think of the RPGs that were designed in response to AD&D 2nd ed and WW storyteller games - ie Forge-y type games - or other games in a similar vein. The best known is probably Apocalpyse World and its offshoots; my personal favourite is Burning Wheel. Of "classic" games my favourite, and one that can be run transparently (I know that because I'm doing it), is Classic Traveller.</p><p></p><p>In another recent thread I quoted Christopher Kubasik's "Interactive Toolkit", a critique of certain sort of approaches to RPGing first published in the early 90s. Kubasik was not strictly a Forge person, but his ideas were influential there. The Interactive Tookit essays are <a href="https://playsorcerer.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/the-interactive-toolkit-an-introduction/" target="_blank">still available</a> on Kubasik's <em>Play Sorcerer </em>website. And of course Sorcerer is the quintessential Forge game, being Ron Edwards's magnum opus!</p><p></p><p>But Kubasik also has a more recent Classic Traveller website, and that includes <a href="https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2016/05/21/traveller-out-of-the-box-notes-on-the-personal-combat-system/" target="_blank">a discussion of Traveller combat through the lens of free kriegsspiel</a>. I haven't read much of Kubasik's Traveller material - I've got my own views on the system, and how to get what I'm looking for out of it (I GM it closer to an AW style than I think is typical).</p><p></p><p>I guess where I'm heading with all this is that, as a result of my reading and my own play experience which includes BW, Traveller, D&D 4e and Rolemaster all among my favourite games, is that I think I prefer the eclectic, wide-open perspective of The Forge and Christopher Kubasik and Vincent Baker (who once posted defending LotFP against criticisms from Edwards), to what I see as a rather strident and even dismissive tone in some of the FKR material I've looked at.</p><p></p><p>Or to put it in a slightly different way: as far as I know I'm the first regular ENworld posters to have played and posted about Cthulhu Dark, so I don't feel like I need my eyes being opened to the possibilities of "lite" gaming. And in the Cthulhu Dark sessions I've run the players took the lead in establishing the initial situation (built on their decisions about PC occupations), which we then ran with in play. So I feel like I have some experience with improv-ish, collaborative RPGing. (Not as much as [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER].)</p><p></p><p>Overall, I prefer analysis of how different approaches work, what different techniques can look like and how they interact. I mean, I play both Prince Valiant and Burning Wheel. They are pretty similar in many ways: scene-framing is the basic GM-side technique; resolution is via dice pools vs "objective" difficulties; neither uses map-and-key. So why is Prince Valiant fundamentally light-hearted, whereas Burning Wheel is so intense and demanding? I've got some views about the answers, but working it out is about careful analysis, not advocacy for one game over the other. (I love both.)</p><p></p><p>That went a bit longer than I meant it to!, so I'll stop there and reply to the substance of your post in a separate post. But I hope it gives you a better sense of what my perspective is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8398782, member: 42582"] I'm starting with this, because maybe it affects how we view the FKR stuff. I actually don't see any hints of collaboration in the FKR material I've looked at - it all emphasises the GM authority over backstory and resolution. And when I think of transparency over illusionism I think of the RPGs that were designed in response to AD&D 2nd ed and WW storyteller games - ie Forge-y type games - or other games in a similar vein. The best known is probably Apocalpyse World and its offshoots; my personal favourite is Burning Wheel. Of "classic" games my favourite, and one that can be run transparently (I know that because I'm doing it), is Classic Traveller. In another recent thread I quoted Christopher Kubasik's "Interactive Toolkit", a critique of certain sort of approaches to RPGing first published in the early 90s. Kubasik was not strictly a Forge person, but his ideas were influential there. The Interactive Tookit essays are [url=https://playsorcerer.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/the-interactive-toolkit-an-introduction/]still available[/url] on Kubasik's [I]Play Sorcerer [/I]website. And of course Sorcerer is the quintessential Forge game, being Ron Edwards's magnum opus! But Kubasik also has a more recent Classic Traveller website, and that includes [url=https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2016/05/21/traveller-out-of-the-box-notes-on-the-personal-combat-system/]a discussion of Traveller combat through the lens of free kriegsspiel[/url]. I haven't read much of Kubasik's Traveller material - I've got my own views on the system, and how to get what I'm looking for out of it (I GM it closer to an AW style than I think is typical). I guess where I'm heading with all this is that, as a result of my reading and my own play experience which includes BW, Traveller, D&D 4e and Rolemaster all among my favourite games, is that I think I prefer the eclectic, wide-open perspective of The Forge and Christopher Kubasik and Vincent Baker (who once posted defending LotFP against criticisms from Edwards), to what I see as a rather strident and even dismissive tone in some of the FKR material I've looked at. Or to put it in a slightly different way: as far as I know I'm the first regular ENworld posters to have played and posted about Cthulhu Dark, so I don't feel like I need my eyes being opened to the possibilities of "lite" gaming. And in the Cthulhu Dark sessions I've run the players took the lead in establishing the initial situation (built on their decisions about PC occupations), which we then ran with in play. So I feel like I have some experience with improv-ish, collaborative RPGing. (Not as much as [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER].) Overall, I prefer analysis of how different approaches work, what different techniques can look like and how they interact. I mean, I play both Prince Valiant and Burning Wheel. They are pretty similar in many ways: scene-framing is the basic GM-side technique; resolution is via dice pools vs "objective" difficulties; neither uses map-and-key. So why is Prince Valiant fundamentally light-hearted, whereas Burning Wheel is so intense and demanding? I've got some views about the answers, but working it out is about careful analysis, not advocacy for one game over the other. (I love both.) That went a bit longer than I meant it to!, so I'll stop there and reply to the substance of your post in a separate post. But I hope it gives you a better sense of what my perspective is. [/QUOTE]
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