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Day-Based & Encounter-Based: It's Not Balance, It's Playstyle
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5976722" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>It scales. If the wizard can do it three or four times per day, the fighter might need another six or twelve hits to "catch up," but you can peg it at whatever you need with the knowledge that each additional spell/day means an extra few rounds of fighter output. An average 4e adventuring day of 3 encounters is about 18 hits, so using that as a metric, our 1d8+10 fighter deals 270 damage, and our 5d6 wizard needs about 5 fireballs (or fireball-equivalents made of lower-level spells) per day to keep pace. </p><p></p><p>Personally, I'd even encourage fighters to have a slight edge on raw damage output to encourage wizards to use their spells very tactically. Rather than 1d8+10 (pfft. That's peasant damage), I'd like to see 5th level fighters with, I dunno, 5d8+5. Extra actions, extra attacks, and extra damage can all blow that up even further: Fighters are SUPPOSED to be the reliable class! Meanwhile, if that wizard blows that fireball on a lone kobold, they may fry it, but then their total damage for the day is going to be lower than a fighter's. Meanwhile, if they manage to bunch all the kobolds together in a ten-by-ten room, maybe the wizard has earned his slight damage spike over the fighter by being super effective. And I'd also encourage spells per day to be low, so to encourage that "running out of resources" vibe, and just to make things cleaner overall. </p><p></p><p>Now, 1d8+10 damage doesn't compare to, say, <em>Fly</em>, but that's a bit of a problem with pillars (combat vs. exploration) and not a problem with the maths. And I could live with a nerfed fly (say, something that requires an action to keep active) as a default, if it means a more inclusive game!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This mostly depends on how unweildy high level magic gets. Like in any edition of D&D, it might turn into the Options Hydra that paralyzes everyone. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> And those who aren't paralyzed might leverage obscure low-level spells to twink the game. But balancing lower-level spells with high-level use in mind is part of what I think is the designers' job, and I think 5e's "flat curve" can help ameliorate this: we don't need to see high level casters with 50 spells per day. I'd be content if a high level wizard could cast 10. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> There might be a more choice middle ground. Maybe 28, if the wizard tops out at 4/day of each spell level and there's 7 basic spell levels? As long as you keep them roughly equal in output to a fighter over the course of a day, making every encounter a day's worth of XP works clean and nice.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, that works!</p><p></p><p>Also, if you're finding combat too long, you might space out the recovery a bit more. Maybe every milestone (so each encounter is half a day!) or every 3 encounters (so you can get the three-act structure!) or whatever you feel comfortable with. Since it's mostly about playstyle, you can set it at whatever point you need (whatever "makes sense to you" or gets the players to act as you desire) without worrying too much about the numbers involved in output. Time shifting your rests is CRAZY flexible like that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5976722, member: 2067"] It scales. If the wizard can do it three or four times per day, the fighter might need another six or twelve hits to "catch up," but you can peg it at whatever you need with the knowledge that each additional spell/day means an extra few rounds of fighter output. An average 4e adventuring day of 3 encounters is about 18 hits, so using that as a metric, our 1d8+10 fighter deals 270 damage, and our 5d6 wizard needs about 5 fireballs (or fireball-equivalents made of lower-level spells) per day to keep pace. Personally, I'd even encourage fighters to have a slight edge on raw damage output to encourage wizards to use their spells very tactically. Rather than 1d8+10 (pfft. That's peasant damage), I'd like to see 5th level fighters with, I dunno, 5d8+5. Extra actions, extra attacks, and extra damage can all blow that up even further: Fighters are SUPPOSED to be the reliable class! Meanwhile, if that wizard blows that fireball on a lone kobold, they may fry it, but then their total damage for the day is going to be lower than a fighter's. Meanwhile, if they manage to bunch all the kobolds together in a ten-by-ten room, maybe the wizard has earned his slight damage spike over the fighter by being super effective. And I'd also encourage spells per day to be low, so to encourage that "running out of resources" vibe, and just to make things cleaner overall. Now, 1d8+10 damage doesn't compare to, say, [I]Fly[/I], but that's a bit of a problem with pillars (combat vs. exploration) and not a problem with the maths. And I could live with a nerfed fly (say, something that requires an action to keep active) as a default, if it means a more inclusive game! This mostly depends on how unweildy high level magic gets. Like in any edition of D&D, it might turn into the Options Hydra that paralyzes everyone. ;) And those who aren't paralyzed might leverage obscure low-level spells to twink the game. But balancing lower-level spells with high-level use in mind is part of what I think is the designers' job, and I think 5e's "flat curve" can help ameliorate this: we don't need to see high level casters with 50 spells per day. I'd be content if a high level wizard could cast 10. ;) There might be a more choice middle ground. Maybe 28, if the wizard tops out at 4/day of each spell level and there's 7 basic spell levels? As long as you keep them roughly equal in output to a fighter over the course of a day, making every encounter a day's worth of XP works clean and nice. Sure, that works! Also, if you're finding combat too long, you might space out the recovery a bit more. Maybe every milestone (so each encounter is half a day!) or every 3 encounters (so you can get the three-act structure!) or whatever you feel comfortable with. Since it's mostly about playstyle, you can set it at whatever point you need (whatever "makes sense to you" or gets the players to act as you desire) without worrying too much about the numbers involved in output. Time shifting your rests is CRAZY flexible like that. [/QUOTE]
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