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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="ZebraDruid" data-source="post: 9064717" data-attributes="member: 7041885"><p>In my example earlier I described a deep dark hole, and how there are consequences to jumping into it. The consequences might seem obvious, but not always. Just like any NPCs motivations may seem obvious.</p><p></p><p>If <strong>what you say is true</strong>, then a <strong>player</strong> who <strong>jumps</strong> into a <strong>dark hole</strong> should be able to <strong>determine</strong> the <strong>consequences</strong>, not the DM. I realize there are delicate <strong>nuances</strong> that could change the interpretation of this rule, but that is why I think a DM should remain flexible in this kind of thinking.</p><p></p><p>Also, if the backstory is discoverable before the consequences manifest themselves, but the players choose not to, do not find, or otherwise ignore that information, are they still being robbed of agency? Is player knowledge of consequences required to respect the players agency?</p><p></p><p>If I use my <strong>trap metaphor</strong>. If they walk down a <strong>hall</strong> <strong>without</strong> doing a <strong>perception</strong> check, and <strong>spring</strong> a <strong>trap</strong>, and get <strong>hurt</strong>, are they robbed of <strong>agency</strong>? The nuance, and <strong>question</strong> here, is when does it become <strong>not</strong> the <strong>same</strong> as a <strong>hallway with a trap</strong>.</p><p></p><p>During the ritual the villain had a dialogue with his resurrected father, explaining to the people in the room of the curse/pact with Asmodeus, and how they were going to fulfill it fully. (One could infer this meant raising the rest of the bodies seen in the crypt)</p><p></p><p>I agree, if I had forced the ritual to be completed even if the paladin was present and trying to stop it, without any kind of rolls or response to the players actions, that would be an issue.</p><p></p><p><strong>True, but</strong> in this circumstance it is more akin to <strong>"Deciding what will happen before the PCs do anything, and changing it if they do something." </strong></p><p></p><p>I'm deciding that a <strong>tree will fall</strong> in 30 minutes due to wind. If the <strong>PCs</strong> come and <strong>brace it</strong>, it <strong>won't fall</strong> (possibly based on a roll). I'm not taking away their agency to stop the tree from falling, especially if they know it is a windy day. If they choose not to inspect the tree to see its' weak roots, or that it is swaying in the wind and it falls. And choose to do nothing as it starts to tip. I can't control that, nor would I want to.</p><p></p><p>Otherwise, at its core I could only determine a tree would fall if the players observe it, and act to make it fall.</p><p>Or I think, if I'm purely creating situations based on the moment without context, arbitrarily make a tree start to fall as they pass just to give the players a chance to stop it. Which I don't think is very interesting or complex.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks, I agree with all points.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll take a look at those other systems. We're enjoying PFE2 currently, but if it falls through maybe I'll suggest those.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thank you. I am trying to create small stories without resolved endings for the PCs to discover (With a neutral outcome if they don't, typically), overtime the combination of those stories culminate to a larger outcome.</p><p></p><p>My cleric came to me and said much the same, and thought that the ranger and paladin needed more experience in roleplaying before things would run more smoothly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ZebraDruid, post: 9064717, member: 7041885"] In my example earlier I described a deep dark hole, and how there are consequences to jumping into it. The consequences might seem obvious, but not always. Just like any NPCs motivations may seem obvious. If [B]what you say is true[/B], then a [B]player[/B] who [B]jumps[/B] into a [B]dark hole[/B] should be able to [B]determine[/B] the [B]consequences[/B], not the DM. I realize there are delicate [B]nuances[/B] that could change the interpretation of this rule, but that is why I think a DM should remain flexible in this kind of thinking. Also, if the backstory is discoverable before the consequences manifest themselves, but the players choose not to, do not find, or otherwise ignore that information, are they still being robbed of agency? Is player knowledge of consequences required to respect the players agency? If I use my [B]trap metaphor[/B]. If they walk down a [B]hall[/B] [B]without[/B] doing a [B]perception[/B] check, and [B]spring[/B] a [B]trap[/B], and get [B]hurt[/B], are they robbed of [B]agency[/B]? The nuance, and [B]question[/B] here, is when does it become [B]not[/B] the [B]same[/B] as a [B]hallway with a trap[/B]. During the ritual the villain had a dialogue with his resurrected father, explaining to the people in the room of the curse/pact with Asmodeus, and how they were going to fulfill it fully. (One could infer this meant raising the rest of the bodies seen in the crypt) I agree, if I had forced the ritual to be completed even if the paladin was present and trying to stop it, without any kind of rolls or response to the players actions, that would be an issue. [B]True, but[/B] in this circumstance it is more akin to [B]"Deciding what will happen before the PCs do anything, and changing it if they do something." [/B] I'm deciding that a [B]tree will fall[/B] in 30 minutes due to wind. If the [B]PCs[/B] come and [B]brace it[/B], it [B]won't fall[/B] (possibly based on a roll). I'm not taking away their agency to stop the tree from falling, especially if they know it is a windy day. If they choose not to inspect the tree to see its' weak roots, or that it is swaying in the wind and it falls. And choose to do nothing as it starts to tip. I can't control that, nor would I want to. Otherwise, at its core I could only determine a tree would fall if the players observe it, and act to make it fall. Or I think, if I'm purely creating situations based on the moment without context, arbitrarily make a tree start to fall as they pass just to give the players a chance to stop it. Which I don't think is very interesting or complex. Thanks, I agree with all points. I'll take a look at those other systems. We're enjoying PFE2 currently, but if it falls through maybe I'll suggest those. Thank you. I am trying to create small stories without resolved endings for the PCs to discover (With a neutral outcome if they don't, typically), overtime the combination of those stories culminate to a larger outcome. My cleric came to me and said much the same, and thought that the ranger and paladin needed more experience in roleplaying before things would run more smoothly. [/QUOTE]
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