Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 9066504" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>They absolutely can fit into a scenario with GM plots.</p><p></p><p>But if you want to fit them into a scenario with player agency, then you need to add the key aspect of information for the players. That's the essential piece you're missing above.</p><p></p><p>The players need to be aware of their options, some sense of the odds for each option, and the likely outcomes of success or failure. Meaningful decision is not about the outcome... it's about the point of the decision. I have to have information when I decide in order for that decision to be informed and therefore meaningful. </p><p></p><p>I think too many people are looking at the outcome alone and then declaring any decision that led to it as "meaningful". But I think it's a mistake to look at it that way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you come up with the idea, then ask the players if they're interested, and then prepare a campaign that fits that? What input do the players have on this? Do the characters they make have any impact on what you will prepare?</p><p></p><p>What you've described sounds like the answer to all the questions I asked is "it's up to the GM'. I don't know how you see that as a recipe for player agency.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The three examples I gave were soldiers trying to make their way home from behind enemy lines, a group of criminals, and a group of spies... none of these are not adventurous. No one is talking about one player deciding to take on some mundane goal to the exclusion of all else. That's not anything that's being suggested.</p><p></p><p>"Adventurer" is just very vague. Vague enough for the GM to be able to throw just about anything he feels like at the players.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, in a certain kind of play, it's absolutely vital. I just don't think that kind of play has much to do with player agency.</p><p></p><p>In a player directed game, the players will be involved in generating the direction of play... they'll help determine the "hooks" (such as they are in that kind of game).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why would you conflate sharing the AC of an opponent in full plate with revealing the entirety of the dungeon? These are not both mysteries.</p><p></p><p>If my character sees an orc in plate and with a shield, my character doesn't think "I wonder what his AC is". The character has the information he needs already... the orc has plate and a shield.</p><p></p><p>Now, for the player of a game to be informed, he should know what that means mechanically. Chances are, he'll have a good idea already as you've suggested, but if so, then why not just say it? The player should know what that means mechanically if he is to have agency. Saying "the orc has an AC of 18" doesn't spoil anything. There's no mystery that's ruined by just giving this information out.</p><p></p><p>This reluctance to share information is a sign that player agency is not a high priority. It's unnecessary, and opens the door to fudging and force and other things that I would expect anyone interested in player agency would want to avoid.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 9066504, member: 6785785"] They absolutely can fit into a scenario with GM plots. But if you want to fit them into a scenario with player agency, then you need to add the key aspect of information for the players. That's the essential piece you're missing above. The players need to be aware of their options, some sense of the odds for each option, and the likely outcomes of success or failure. Meaningful decision is not about the outcome... it's about the point of the decision. I have to have information when I decide in order for that decision to be informed and therefore meaningful. I think too many people are looking at the outcome alone and then declaring any decision that led to it as "meaningful". But I think it's a mistake to look at it that way. So you come up with the idea, then ask the players if they're interested, and then prepare a campaign that fits that? What input do the players have on this? Do the characters they make have any impact on what you will prepare? What you've described sounds like the answer to all the questions I asked is "it's up to the GM'. I don't know how you see that as a recipe for player agency. The three examples I gave were soldiers trying to make their way home from behind enemy lines, a group of criminals, and a group of spies... none of these are not adventurous. No one is talking about one player deciding to take on some mundane goal to the exclusion of all else. That's not anything that's being suggested. "Adventurer" is just very vague. Vague enough for the GM to be able to throw just about anything he feels like at the players. Sure, in a certain kind of play, it's absolutely vital. I just don't think that kind of play has much to do with player agency. In a player directed game, the players will be involved in generating the direction of play... they'll help determine the "hooks" (such as they are in that kind of game). Why would you conflate sharing the AC of an opponent in full plate with revealing the entirety of the dungeon? These are not both mysteries. If my character sees an orc in plate and with a shield, my character doesn't think "I wonder what his AC is". The character has the information he needs already... the orc has plate and a shield. Now, for the player of a game to be informed, he should know what that means mechanically. Chances are, he'll have a good idea already as you've suggested, but if so, then why not just say it? The player should know what that means mechanically if he is to have agency. Saying "the orc has an AC of 18" doesn't spoil anything. There's no mystery that's ruined by just giving this information out. This reluctance to share information is a sign that player agency is not a high priority. It's unnecessary, and opens the door to fudging and force and other things that I would expect anyone interested in player agency would want to avoid. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
Top