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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9067451" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Good last series of posts!</p><p></p><p>PSA: I preemptively apologize for any/all the jargon below!</p><p></p><p>[USER=6690965]@Pedantic[/USER] , I like the bulk of your post (and I certainly like your clear thinking on this subject even if we have disagreements around the edges). I’m curious about your thoughts regarding what [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] has written above. But I’ve got am add-on to his comments that I’d like your thoughts on.</p><p></p><p>Even in games with minimal challenge-based priorities, the following is true (which you seem to dispute):</p><p></p><p>1) A player’s facility with “playing the fiction to array the imagined space such that it more likely leads to a new desired state” is a component of play that can’t be decoupled from narrative trajectory.</p><p></p><p>2) The ability of a player to marshal character build + action resolution dynamics can’t be decoupled from narrative trajectory.</p><p></p><p>3) Depending upon game engine, the ability of a player to pursue xp triggers and reward cycles will both directly affect narrative trajectory (in the moment of their pursuit) and indirectly because of how advancement will affect (2) above.</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that TTRPG that isn’t Pawn Stance dungeon crawling or railroad APs (where narrative trajectory is irrelevant or the control of which has been settled before play), narrative trajectory cannot be decoupled from the above.</p><p></p><p>EDIT - Quick addendum. Texas Hold ‘Em (poker) has a huge dimension of skill that isn’t related to risk assessment or odds of any particular array of hole cards + face cards leading to “the nuts” (best possible hand). That skill is related directly to my (1) above. Players “tell a story (in order to leverage it)” with all of (a) their betting patterns, (b) the historical hands they’ll play and when they situationally will play what hands, (c) their willingness to, and capabilities in, misrepresenting their hands (which is directly related to self-assessing (a) and (b) and leveraging that information). “Generating a fiction (a metanarrative about the player’s boldness, “straight-play,” and tendencies that play will reveal and other skilled players will attempt to leverage) and playing that fiction” of (a), (b), and (c) above is a massive portion of skillful execution in poker.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9067451, member: 6696971"] Good last series of posts! PSA: I preemptively apologize for any/all the jargon below! [USER=6690965]@Pedantic[/USER] , I like the bulk of your post (and I certainly like your clear thinking on this subject even if we have disagreements around the edges). I’m curious about your thoughts regarding what [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] has written above. But I’ve got am add-on to his comments that I’d like your thoughts on. Even in games with minimal challenge-based priorities, the following is true (which you seem to dispute): 1) A player’s facility with “playing the fiction to array the imagined space such that it more likely leads to a new desired state” is a component of play that can’t be decoupled from narrative trajectory. 2) The ability of a player to marshal character build + action resolution dynamics can’t be decoupled from narrative trajectory. 3) Depending upon game engine, the ability of a player to pursue xp triggers and reward cycles will both directly affect narrative trajectory (in the moment of their pursuit) and indirectly because of how advancement will affect (2) above. It seems to me that TTRPG that isn’t Pawn Stance dungeon crawling or railroad APs (where narrative trajectory is irrelevant or the control of which has been settled before play), narrative trajectory cannot be decoupled from the above. EDIT - Quick addendum. Texas Hold ‘Em (poker) has a huge dimension of skill that isn’t related to risk assessment or odds of any particular array of hole cards + face cards leading to “the nuts” (best possible hand). That skill is related directly to my (1) above. Players “tell a story (in order to leverage it)” with all of (a) their betting patterns, (b) the historical hands they’ll play and when they situationally will play what hands, (c) their willingness to, and capabilities in, misrepresenting their hands (which is directly related to self-assessing (a) and (b) and leveraging that information). “Generating a fiction (a metanarrative about the player’s boldness, “straight-play,” and tendencies that play will reveal and other skilled players will attempt to leverage) and playing that fiction” of (a), (b), and (c) above is a massive portion of skillful execution in poker. [/QUOTE]
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