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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9070738" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>As we have discovered before, there seems no bridging the gap here. Your depiction of 4e SC for instance seems far too simplistic and unlike anything I've encountered in (at least decent quality) play.</p><p></p><p>For example: Why wouldn't there be agency in a situation where I might choose between a forceful (lets say Intimidation) move in order to advance my cause vs a negotiated (lets say Diplomacy) move instead? These might lead to very different narrative outcomes, even assuming equal resource expenditure and probability of success (and with 4e neither of those is likely to be the case). Which of these courses of action will produce a new intermediate situation which is most amenable to my employment of further advantageous (IE higher probability, lower cost, lesser stakes) moves? I want to navigate the landscape of possible sets of options in the most optimum way, and THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL STRATEGY!!!! 4e SC is a pure game-theoretically solid framework! All you have to do is realize that narrative, that is intermediate fictional position from which the next move is made, both depends heavily on what move I choose now, and what the current fictional position is. Yes, things like resource tallies and whatnot, which you might call pure game state, probably also factor in, as I've stated, but you CANNOT DIVORCE THEM from fictional position! If you CAN, then you are not playing a TTRPG. I am probably not revealing any secret when I say that some of us have really wondered why you play RPGs at all, given your stated preferences! (and I'm not saying any of this with critical intent, we all find the clarity with which you express your preferences refreshing). </p><p></p><p>And as to your final point, yes, the player must be able to formulate an estimate of what the risks are. So they must have a clear idea of what values they place on the narrative outcomes in question. This is why narrativist games are favored by some of us, because the game centers on narrative elements which the player has expressed value statements about, or at least where the question has been tabled. Can Takeo discover the fate of Shimayama (his home)? What exactly price will he pay for that knowledge? Play to find out! When faced with "you can betray your crew mate to discover an important part of what you want" that's real game play there! I mean, it will require a few other elements too, but BitD (in this case) is well-designed to provide for those requirements. In a game sense it is quite solid! Much more so IMHO than, say, 5e D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9070738, member: 82106"] As we have discovered before, there seems no bridging the gap here. Your depiction of 4e SC for instance seems far too simplistic and unlike anything I've encountered in (at least decent quality) play. For example: Why wouldn't there be agency in a situation where I might choose between a forceful (lets say Intimidation) move in order to advance my cause vs a negotiated (lets say Diplomacy) move instead? These might lead to very different narrative outcomes, even assuming equal resource expenditure and probability of success (and with 4e neither of those is likely to be the case). Which of these courses of action will produce a new intermediate situation which is most amenable to my employment of further advantageous (IE higher probability, lower cost, lesser stakes) moves? I want to navigate the landscape of possible sets of options in the most optimum way, and THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL STRATEGY!!!! 4e SC is a pure game-theoretically solid framework! All you have to do is realize that narrative, that is intermediate fictional position from which the next move is made, both depends heavily on what move I choose now, and what the current fictional position is. Yes, things like resource tallies and whatnot, which you might call pure game state, probably also factor in, as I've stated, but you CANNOT DIVORCE THEM from fictional position! If you CAN, then you are not playing a TTRPG. I am probably not revealing any secret when I say that some of us have really wondered why you play RPGs at all, given your stated preferences! (and I'm not saying any of this with critical intent, we all find the clarity with which you express your preferences refreshing). And as to your final point, yes, the player must be able to formulate an estimate of what the risks are. So they must have a clear idea of what values they place on the narrative outcomes in question. This is why narrativist games are favored by some of us, because the game centers on narrative elements which the player has expressed value statements about, or at least where the question has been tabled. Can Takeo discover the fate of Shimayama (his home)? What exactly price will he pay for that knowledge? Play to find out! When faced with "you can betray your crew mate to discover an important part of what you want" that's real game play there! I mean, it will require a few other elements too, but BitD (in this case) is well-designed to provide for those requirements. In a game sense it is quite solid! Much more so IMHO than, say, 5e D&D. [/QUOTE]
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