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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9072834" data-attributes="member: 6690965"><p>I'd certainly view those as extrinsic to the general question of agency, probably lumping them in under "ability."</p><p></p><p>You're bringing up the participant's sense of agency routinely, which I have to admit I'm not particularly interested in. People voluntarily play slots and roulette and War, none of which have any actual agency for the player, but people tend to believe/behave as if they do.</p><p></p><p>I don't understand the relevance of this entire example. Team sports are tricky because you have both the overarching structure of a strategy determined by one or more people, and then the execution of pieces of those strategies by individual players. If I'm parsing all of this completely, and I am barely conversant in football so I may not be, you're saying Team X has a strategy that is known/knowable preemptively based on the current state of the game, Team Y has a player who fails to parse this information in time, and consequently makes what I'd call a misplay, from which one can draw a solid line to Team Y's ultimate loss?</p><p></p><p>I think I've followed the narrative, but I'm not totally sure what you're saying with the relationship you're drawing next. I agree one can draw a narrative about the game? In the particular context of professional sports, the consequences of the game are larger than a less observed/impactful contest relying on similar strategy might be.</p><p></p><p>I would say you can certainly tell a story derived from a game state, and you've picked an example that has an industry devoted to doing so.</p><p></p><p>I don't think these follow. The example you provided hinges on one misplay, about which a story can be told, but that isn't relevant to the question of agency in gameplay to begin with.</p><p></p><p>I just don't think this is the case, except in so much as we are all humans and cannot be anything less than ourselves when doing anything at all. I buy that narrative can emerge from gameplay, there's arguably entire genres of television built around that prospect, but I don't think that's relevant to the question of ludic agency. We could examine the context that brought me to a middling table at a local Netrunner tournament, and the context that brought someone to a roulette wheel at a local casino, but within the games we're both playing I will actively have more agency than the gambler.</p><p></p><p>I don't think you've really proven there's only a singular kind of agency, you've just asserted that one can produce narrative from almost context, which I don't think is controversial.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9072834, member: 6690965"] I'd certainly view those as extrinsic to the general question of agency, probably lumping them in under "ability." You're bringing up the participant's sense of agency routinely, which I have to admit I'm not particularly interested in. People voluntarily play slots and roulette and War, none of which have any actual agency for the player, but people tend to believe/behave as if they do. I don't understand the relevance of this entire example. Team sports are tricky because you have both the overarching structure of a strategy determined by one or more people, and then the execution of pieces of those strategies by individual players. If I'm parsing all of this completely, and I am barely conversant in football so I may not be, you're saying Team X has a strategy that is known/knowable preemptively based on the current state of the game, Team Y has a player who fails to parse this information in time, and consequently makes what I'd call a misplay, from which one can draw a solid line to Team Y's ultimate loss? I think I've followed the narrative, but I'm not totally sure what you're saying with the relationship you're drawing next. I agree one can draw a narrative about the game? In the particular context of professional sports, the consequences of the game are larger than a less observed/impactful contest relying on similar strategy might be. I would say you can certainly tell a story derived from a game state, and you've picked an example that has an industry devoted to doing so. I don't think these follow. The example you provided hinges on one misplay, about which a story can be told, but that isn't relevant to the question of agency in gameplay to begin with. I just don't think this is the case, except in so much as we are all humans and cannot be anything less than ourselves when doing anything at all. I buy that narrative can emerge from gameplay, there's arguably entire genres of television built around that prospect, but I don't think that's relevant to the question of ludic agency. We could examine the context that brought me to a middling table at a local Netrunner tournament, and the context that brought someone to a roulette wheel at a local casino, but within the games we're both playing I will actively have more agency than the gambler. I don't think you've really proven there's only a singular kind of agency, you've just asserted that one can produce narrative from almost context, which I don't think is controversial. [/QUOTE]
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