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<blockquote data-quote="El Mahdi" data-source="post: 5768116" data-attributes="member: 59506"><p>I may be reading Upper Krust wrong, I have been known on occasion to miss the point.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p> </p><p>And with Planescape, I agree that the content could be used for any level.</p><p> </p><p>With 4E, however...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>4E PHB, pg. 28-29 - <span style="font-size: 12px">The Three Tiers</span> / 4E DMG, pg. 146-147 - <span style="font-size: 12px">Tiers of Play</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> </p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">A default style and play experience hard coded into the rules. If you're a player of one of the other multitude of game and campaign style preferences, you'll just have to live with being a square peg in a round hole. Or just play using our style. It's more <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/315902-guards-gate-quote.html" target="_blank">fun</a> anyways.</p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">What do you mean you'll just play another game? Good luck with that. We don't make the old game anymore. And we even pulled all the old editions pdf's. So you can't get those either.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Hey! Wait! Where are you going?!? Didn't you hear that part about your not having a choice?</p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Wait... What the hell is that Pathfinder thing...</p><p></span></span></span></span> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><p style="text-align: left"> </p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 12px">Heroic Tier</span></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"> </p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">So much for using a zero to hero style play...</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">So, my 5th level Paladin from a previous edition with an animated stone horse must have been an anomaly...</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">So much for hometown boy saves the world... So much for the everyman hero who's in the right place at the right time...</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">"Not to worry guys. If we meet a dragon, it will be level appropriate. Don't worry about determining if we should fight or run away, any Dragon we meet, we can handle."</span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Of course though, as GM this obviously doesn't mean you <em>can't</em> introduce a high level dragon. But according to the rules, you <em>shouldn't</em>... (there's that <em>should</em> assumption again...)</span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 12px">Paragon Tier</span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">So much for the down-on-their-luck, poor, washed-up, morally bankrupt, burned-out veteran that becomes the world's last hope...</p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></p></span></span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Sorry Frodo...<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" />Why do I have to choose a destiny again...?</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Oh, I see. I can't simply be a fighter that just increases their knowledge and formidibility. I <em>have to choose</em> a destiny that determines how I... (continued further down)</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">What...? My father and grandfather did that when they were still wet behind the ears, but I have to wait until I'm a <em>Paragon</em>...</span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">"Whoa there Rogue! It may look like a juvenile Dragon, but trust me, it isn't. How do I know you ask? Well, we are Paragon aren't we? Duh!"</span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 12px">Epic Tier</span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"> </p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">"What?!? I'm a Superhero??? Hmmm. I don't <em>feel</em> like a Superhero. I'm still living in this crappy room at the Rotgut Pub. Oh well. I guess it's become a Superhero or just call it quits. There's no room for more mundane high-level heroes in this world..."</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">"But I don't want that Power. And I definitely don't want some predetermined path!"</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">"Sorry Luke. It's your Destiny..."</span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">"So, my Dad was just pulling my leg when he talked about traveling to Sigil as a young man just off the farm."</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">"I obviously don't want to go to the planes. Everything is Epic level there. Apparently all soldiers in Sigil are born level 21 or higher..."<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">"Sorry, Ma'am. I can't save your daughter from that Dragon. It isn't Epic enough..."</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 12px">Immortality</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Wait...??? What?!? Immortality...??? What if my campaign and play style doesn't lead to immortality? Maybe I'll just ignore this part...</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'MentorStd'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">Oh! Okay... Now I get it that whole Epic Destiny thing.</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">So basically, I have to choose a destiny I don't want, and limit my character concept as I level up in ways I don't want to, all for a campaign and play style that I don't like and probably won't use. But since it's hardwired into the rules I can't just ignore it... *sigh*<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">So, where does all of this lead? How is it apropos of this thread?</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">Well let me tell you...</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 12px">Dear Mike & Monte.</span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">Please do not design a game that hardwires into it any specific play style or default campaign assumption. Please keep in mind that this game needs to appeal to a broad base. Go for a more basic chasis that includes a base with nods to all play styles. Then provide instruction and advice on how to gear the game towards specific play styles and varying complexity levels...without shading said advice with judgements about what's fun or unfun.</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">Please, make <em>Inclusiveness</em> your watchword.</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">Thank You.</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left">Sincerely,</p> <p style="text-align: left">Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong</p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="El Mahdi, post: 5768116, member: 59506"] I may be reading Upper Krust wrong, I have been known on occasion to miss the point.;) And with Planescape, I agree that the content could be used for any level. With 4E, however... 4E PHB, pg. 28-29 - [SIZE=3]The Three Tiers[/SIZE] / 4E DMG, pg. 146-147 - [SIZE=3]Tiers of Play[/SIZE] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2] [LEFT] A default style and play experience hard coded into the rules. If you're a player of one of the other multitude of game and campaign style preferences, you'll just have to live with being a square peg in a round hole. Or just play using our style. It's more [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/315902-guards-gate-quote.html"]fun[/URL] anyways. What do you mean you'll just play another game? Good luck with that. We don't make the old game anymore. And we even pulled all the old editions pdf's. So you can't get those either.:D Hey! Wait! Where are you going?!? Didn't you hear that part about your not having a choice? Wait... What the hell is that Pathfinder thing...[/LEFT] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][LEFT] [SIZE=3]Heroic Tier[/SIZE] [/LEFT][/SIZE][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][/left][/SIZE][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2]So much for using a zero to hero style play... So, my 5th level Paladin from a previous edition with an animated stone horse must have been an anomaly... So much for hometown boy saves the world... So much for the everyman hero who's in the right place at the right time... [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2] "Not to worry guys. If we meet a dragon, it will be level appropriate. Don't worry about determining if we should fight or run away, any Dragon we meet, we can handle." Of course though, as GM this obviously doesn't mean you [I]can't[/I] introduce a high level dragon. But according to the rules, you [I]shouldn't[/I]... (there's that [I]should[/I] assumption again...) [SIZE=3]Paragon Tier[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][LEFT][/LEFT] [LEFT] So much for the down-on-their-luck, poor, washed-up, morally bankrupt, burned-out veteran that becomes the world's last hope... Sorry Frodo...:erm:[/LEFT][/SIZE][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][/left][/SIZE][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2] :confused:Why do I have to choose a destiny again...? Oh, I see. I can't simply be a fighter that just increases their knowledge and formidibility. I [I]have to choose[/I] a destiny that determines how I... (continued further down) [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][LEFT][/LEFT] What...? My father and grandfather did that when they were still wet behind the ears, but I have to wait until I'm a [I]Paragon[/I]... [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2] "Whoa there Rogue! It may look like a juvenile Dragon, but trust me, it isn't. How do I know you ask? Well, we are Paragon aren't we? Duh!" [SIZE=3]Epic Tier[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][LEFT][/LEFT][/SIZE][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][/left][/SIZE][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2]"What?!? I'm a Superhero??? Hmmm. I don't [I]feel[/I] like a Superhero. I'm still living in this crappy room at the Rotgut Pub. Oh well. I guess it's become a Superhero or just call it quits. There's no room for more mundane high-level heroes in this world..." "But I don't want that Power. And I definitely don't want some predetermined path!" "Sorry Luke. It's your Destiny..." [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] "So, my Dad was just pulling my leg when he talked about traveling to Sigil as a young man just off the farm." "I obviously don't want to go to the planes. Everything is Epic level there. Apparently all soldiers in Sigil are born level 21 or higher...":erm: [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] "Sorry, Ma'am. I can't save your daughter from that Dragon. It isn't Epic enough..." [/LEFT] [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][SIZE=3]Immortality[/SIZE] Wait...??? What?!? Immortality...??? What if my campaign and play style doesn't lead to immortality? Maybe I'll just ignore this part... [FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][FONT=MentorStd][SIZE=2][LEFT][/LEFT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][LEFT] Oh! Okay... Now I get it that whole Epic Destiny thing. So basically, I have to choose a destiny I don't want, and limit my character concept as I level up in ways I don't want to, all for a campaign and play style that I don't like and probably won't use. But since it's hardwired into the rules I can't just ignore it... *sigh*:( So, where does all of this lead? How is it apropos of this thread? Well let me tell you... [SIZE=3]Dear Mike & Monte.[/SIZE] Please do not design a game that hardwires into it any specific play style or default campaign assumption. Please keep in mind that this game needs to appeal to a broad base. Go for a more basic chasis that includes a base with nods to all play styles. Then provide instruction and advice on how to gear the game towards specific play styles and varying complexity levels...without shading said advice with judgements about what's fun or unfun. Please, make [I]Inclusiveness[/I] your watchword. Thank You. Sincerely, Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong :)[/LEFT] [/QUOTE]
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