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<blockquote data-quote="El Mahdi" data-source="post: 5768419" data-attributes="member: 59506"><p>They pulled <em><strong>all</strong></em> pdf's. Not just 4E.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Closing the barn door after the horses have fled. It was hardwired into the game in a manner that makes this style extremely difficult to impossible. People contemplating whether to switch to 4E read the core books when they came out, realized they couldn't play their type of game with it, and moved on.</p><p> </p><p>It's a lot easier to sell a new game at the start, than try to sell it later after minds have been made up. If the <em>core rules</em> had been inclusive for all play styles, from the start, they likely wouldn't have lost so many after the initial release. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>And as above, also not in the initial core rules (PHB1, DMG1, MM1). Contributing to the same result as above...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Not in the initial <em>core rules</em>...</p><p> </p><p>It doesn't say <em>"may"</em>...it doesn't say <em>"you have the choice"</em>...it says <em>"you choose"</em>...</p><p> </p><p>A defacto, hard-wired campaign style.</p><p> </p><p>The only thing that's expressed as "optional" (actually uses the word "optional"), is concerning Destiny Quests.</p><p> </p><p>It may say that in subsequent books, or on DDI. But again, that's an example of closing the barn door after the horses have left. They lost people with the core books. Those that had already left were never going to see subsequent books or DDI changes, and would likely be hard sell to bring back anyways (as explained above).</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Not everyone plays where high-level characters are automatically <em>"Paragons"</em> and <em>"Shining Examples"</em>. Some play where high-level characters can appear like that, but it's a choice, not a defacto assumption. The initial core rules don't even present the possibility of such play.</p><p> </p><p>So, as for an example of how that works: I'm a 21 year veteran of the USAF, with 5 years in Combat Search & Rescue, 5 years an AF Special Operations, and a veteran of 5 wars. If I were to "stat" myself out, I think a level somewhere over 10th wouldn't be unimaginable. But I can guarentee, when I walk around or enter an establishment, people don't automatically say: <em>"Wow! A Paragon!"</em> Quite honestly, they don't know me from any other person. And I'm not anywhere in the same league as SOF Operators. You could walk by a Navy SEAL on the street, and never even know it.</p><p> </p><p>Many people like to play where high-level characters are automatically recognized as something very special. And that's cool.</p><p> </p><p>Others don't. And that's also cool.</p><p> </p><p>A system that hard-wires one play-style into the system, and won't even acknowledge the other. That's a mistake.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>But again, as I've said earlier, I am not 4E bashing. There are pieces of 4E I think are genius, and I use them as houserules in my own games. This is however, a thread for feedback to Mike & Monte about feedback on going forward into a new edition. I am doing so in hopes that the mistakes of the past do not get replicated in their current endeavor.</p><p> </p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="El Mahdi, post: 5768419, member: 59506"] They pulled [I][B]all[/B][/I] pdf's. Not just 4E. Closing the barn door after the horses have fled. It was hardwired into the game in a manner that makes this style extremely difficult to impossible. People contemplating whether to switch to 4E read the core books when they came out, realized they couldn't play their type of game with it, and moved on. It's a lot easier to sell a new game at the start, than try to sell it later after minds have been made up. If the [I]core rules[/I] had been inclusive for all play styles, from the start, they likely wouldn't have lost so many after the initial release. And as above, also not in the initial core rules (PHB1, DMG1, MM1). Contributing to the same result as above... Not in the initial [I]core rules[/I]... It doesn't say [I]"may"[/I]...it doesn't say [I]"you have the choice"[/I]...it says [I]"you choose"[/I]... A defacto, hard-wired campaign style. The only thing that's expressed as "optional" (actually uses the word "optional"), is concerning Destiny Quests. It may say that in subsequent books, or on DDI. But again, that's an example of closing the barn door after the horses have left. They lost people with the core books. Those that had already left were never going to see subsequent books or DDI changes, and would likely be hard sell to bring back anyways (as explained above). Not everyone plays where high-level characters are automatically [I]"Paragons"[/I] and [I]"Shining Examples"[/I]. Some play where high-level characters can appear like that, but it's a choice, not a defacto assumption. The initial core rules don't even present the possibility of such play. So, as for an example of how that works: I'm a 21 year veteran of the USAF, with 5 years in Combat Search & Rescue, 5 years an AF Special Operations, and a veteran of 5 wars. If I were to "stat" myself out, I think a level somewhere over 10th wouldn't be unimaginable. But I can guarentee, when I walk around or enter an establishment, people don't automatically say: [I]"Wow! A Paragon!"[/I] Quite honestly, they don't know me from any other person. And I'm not anywhere in the same league as SOF Operators. You could walk by a Navy SEAL on the street, and never even know it. Many people like to play where high-level characters are automatically recognized as something very special. And that's cool. Others don't. And that's also cool. A system that hard-wires one play-style into the system, and won't even acknowledge the other. That's a mistake. But again, as I've said earlier, I am not 4E bashing. There are pieces of 4E I think are genius, and I use them as houserules in my own games. This is however, a thread for feedback to Mike & Monte about feedback on going forward into a new edition. I am doing so in hopes that the mistakes of the past do not get replicated in their current endeavor. :) [/QUOTE]
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