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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8863071" data-attributes="member: 23751"><p>Come up with an ability not on the monster features list and you will have difficulty assigning it an effective challenge rating. They on the other hand will not have that difficulty, because they have the math that enabled them to rate the monster features.</p><p></p><p>What they've given you are tools to make a monster. They did NOT give you the math behind those tools.</p><p></p><p>All abilities are applicable, because PCs are balanced for all three pillars, not just combat.</p><p></p><p>You did not. You might have chosen one style and accounted for that, but there are other styles that impact combat in different ways. Defense, great weapon fighting, etc.</p><p></p><p>I never agreed to it. You just came up with numbers. I'm calling foul because you're cheating. You're giving your side access to optional rules to make your side's damage better, while limiting my side's access to optional rules because they would do much better with feats.</p><p></p><p>Either both have access or neither do. That's fair.</p><p></p><p>Right, because you never have to make saves in combat. And I'd really like to know how often you go through 6-8 fights at 11th level without anyone having to make a save.</p><p></p><p>There are many other things for fighters. It depends on the subclass. Samurai have some good ones. As do Battle Masters. It's telling that you chose the well known weakest subclass to test against your clerics.</p><p></p><p>Choosing 4 of the same subclass against 4 of another subclass is just more white room nonsense. It's time to come out of the white room and try to see how things would work in a real game situation with all of the variables involved as they would be in a real game.</p><p></p><p>It's all relevant.</p><p></p><p>And with the weakest subclass. Imagine if you had actually picked a good fighter subclass.</p><p></p><p>The numbers don't really matter. All they do is support your feelings, not prove some sort of objective problem. You're saying, "I think this is over/under powered because of X numbers" and those X numbers won't be over/under powered for other people. You can throw them in if you like, but they aren't relevant to an opinion like this.</p><p></p><p>Correct.</p><p></p><p>Correct.</p><p></p><p>The opinion is that the healing should counter damage of the same level when you don't have the math behind it. That's just your feelings.</p><p></p><p>Yes, but you haven't demonstrated that it's an issue or not balanced when looked at in the totality of the 4 PCs and all of their abilities vs. the monsters.</p><p></p><p>You are violating Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is that the players will be players and use utility to make the obstacles easier. Trying to claim that you will have 100% of your slots for combat since that might happen to a group once in a blue moon fails on its face. You don't design or argue around corner cases.</p><p></p><p>Why would I try and disprove a Strawman? You admit to dropping half of what I said and since I didn't say I do only the half you are using, I'm under no obligation to prove or disprove something that I don't do and never said that I did.</p><p></p><p>I refer you to the myriad of fighter threads on the forum for why the champion is the weakest. As for you using the champion, it's the subclass with the most stability in damage for you to calculate from.</p><p></p><p>What subclass did you use?</p><p></p><p>Good thing we're discussing clerics. I use find traps as a utility spell and avoid the trap!!! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>How are they better off dishing out a ton more damage and ending fights much sooner while not sacrificing much AC?</p><p></p><p>You've already demonstrated that fighters of the weakest(or one of the weakest) subclasses pull ahead of your clerics in the 6th fight of a 6-8 encounter adventuring day. That means that they are better in all adventuring days with 6-8 fights........................without feats. Feats just make them better, just as your optional cantrip makes your clerics better. Of course, get rid of the optional cantrip and your clerics don't do as much damage, so the fighters without feats are even better at the those 6-8 fights.</p><p></p><p>No. It indicates that healing is not intended to be used in that fashion. It's primarily a whack-a-mole resource in combat.</p><p></p><p>In your white room, sure. In an actual game battle the fighters with their two handed weapons and feats drop those monsters more quickly and don't need nearly as much healing as the clerics do.</p><p></p><p>And my find traps spell worked and I avoided the "trap!" Mostly because it didn't exist due to being another white room construction of yours.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 8863071, member: 23751"] Come up with an ability not on the monster features list and you will have difficulty assigning it an effective challenge rating. They on the other hand will not have that difficulty, because they have the math that enabled them to rate the monster features. What they've given you are tools to make a monster. They did NOT give you the math behind those tools. All abilities are applicable, because PCs are balanced for all three pillars, not just combat. You did not. You might have chosen one style and accounted for that, but there are other styles that impact combat in different ways. Defense, great weapon fighting, etc. I never agreed to it. You just came up with numbers. I'm calling foul because you're cheating. You're giving your side access to optional rules to make your side's damage better, while limiting my side's access to optional rules because they would do much better with feats. Either both have access or neither do. That's fair. Right, because you never have to make saves in combat. And I'd really like to know how often you go through 6-8 fights at 11th level without anyone having to make a save. There are many other things for fighters. It depends on the subclass. Samurai have some good ones. As do Battle Masters. It's telling that you chose the well known weakest subclass to test against your clerics. Choosing 4 of the same subclass against 4 of another subclass is just more white room nonsense. It's time to come out of the white room and try to see how things would work in a real game situation with all of the variables involved as they would be in a real game. It's all relevant. And with the weakest subclass. Imagine if you had actually picked a good fighter subclass. The numbers don't really matter. All they do is support your feelings, not prove some sort of objective problem. You're saying, "I think this is over/under powered because of X numbers" and those X numbers won't be over/under powered for other people. You can throw them in if you like, but they aren't relevant to an opinion like this. Correct. Correct. The opinion is that the healing should counter damage of the same level when you don't have the math behind it. That's just your feelings. Yes, but you haven't demonstrated that it's an issue or not balanced when looked at in the totality of the 4 PCs and all of their abilities vs. the monsters. You are violating Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is that the players will be players and use utility to make the obstacles easier. Trying to claim that you will have 100% of your slots for combat since that might happen to a group once in a blue moon fails on its face. You don't design or argue around corner cases. Why would I try and disprove a Strawman? You admit to dropping half of what I said and since I didn't say I do only the half you are using, I'm under no obligation to prove or disprove something that I don't do and never said that I did. I refer you to the myriad of fighter threads on the forum for why the champion is the weakest. As for you using the champion, it's the subclass with the most stability in damage for you to calculate from. What subclass did you use? Good thing we're discussing clerics. I use find traps as a utility spell and avoid the trap!!! ;) How are they better off dishing out a ton more damage and ending fights much sooner while not sacrificing much AC? You've already demonstrated that fighters of the weakest(or one of the weakest) subclasses pull ahead of your clerics in the 6th fight of a 6-8 encounter adventuring day. That means that they are better in all adventuring days with 6-8 fights........................without feats. Feats just make them better, just as your optional cantrip makes your clerics better. Of course, get rid of the optional cantrip and your clerics don't do as much damage, so the fighters without feats are even better at the those 6-8 fights. No. It indicates that healing is not intended to be used in that fashion. It's primarily a whack-a-mole resource in combat. In your white room, sure. In an actual game battle the fighters with their two handed weapons and feats drop those monsters more quickly and don't need nearly as much healing as the clerics do. And my find traps spell worked and I avoided the "trap!" Mostly because it didn't exist due to being another white room construction of yours. [/QUOTE]
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