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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8863263" data-attributes="member: 23751"><p>Where? I looked at it and all it is is X thing grants this much CR. It gives no math behind why it's that much of a CR. I can't calculate the CR of an ability that temporarily(until a short rest) cuts a PC's level in half with a Cha save DC of 17. I have no math to judge that by.</p><p></p><p>Undead will almost always be encountered at some point. Just like there will be adventuring days when you never use second wind. Just because an ability isn't universally useful, doesn't mean that it doesn't count.</p><p></p><p>Comparing healing is another waste of time. If you haven't gotten by now that balance is more that just healing I'm not sure what else to say.</p><p></p><p>Where in that quote have I said, "I agree to no feats?"</p><p></p><p>Here are the CR 11 creatures from the MM</p><p></p><p>Behir: Causes saves.</p><p>Djinni: Causes saves.</p><p>Efreeti: Causes saves.</p><p>Gynosphinx: Causes saves.</p><p>Horned Devil: Causes saves.</p><p>Remorhaz: Here's one without saves!!!</p><p>Roc: Causes saves.</p><p></p><p>Only one CR 11 creature doesn't involve saves and the CRs +2/-2 from 11 are similar in the frequency of saves. It's not a maybe you won't. Unless you're white rooming 6-8 encounters with Remorhazes and the like, saves are a part of the adventuring day at that level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>::holds up a mirror::</p><p></p><p>Because outside of your white room, it is a spell that gets cast, as do many other spells. Clerics don't go walking around casting the same 2 spells over and over again. Or maybe some really, really boring players do that. In my experience the vast majority do not.</p><p></p><p>No it's not. You're sitting here claiming that the numbers for a spell are low and not balanced properly. That's you taking the same numbers we all see and forming an opinion about it that is likely not in line with WotC's design balance.</p><p></p><p>You do need to analyze everything and here's why. If class A(cleric has good utility and social), having low healing and less combat ability when compared to the fighter with its greater combat ability is not a problem. It's part of the class design balance.</p><p></p><p>Yep. The simplest explanation is you are wrong here and the game is balanced properly with regard to the healing spells.</p><p></p><p>First, you can't prove a negative. Second, the chances of a party doing as you describe are somewhere between nil and almost nil. </p><p></p><p>Okay, then you're even much more wrong than you were. Without a subclass the fighter without feats passes the cleric in the 6th fight. Add in subclasses and it happens much sooner. Most clerical subclass abilities deal with social and exploration. Most fighter subclass abilities are combat related.</p><p></p><p>No wonder you're fighting so hard not to include subclasses. Your clerics can barely hold their own in combat with full spellcasting against fighters without a subclass.</p><p></p><p>This is objectively false. The fighters do in fact have subclasses, so you've wasted tons of my time with this nonsense comparison of only base classes. How about you stop wasting my time and use Battle Master for the fighter?</p><p></p><p>I deleted everything else because numbers without subclasses are an irrelevant waste of time and I will no longer entertain discussion along those lines. Battle Masters have increased damage from their superiority dice, and have the specials that come along with the maneuvers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 8863263, member: 23751"] Where? I looked at it and all it is is X thing grants this much CR. It gives no math behind why it's that much of a CR. I can't calculate the CR of an ability that temporarily(until a short rest) cuts a PC's level in half with a Cha save DC of 17. I have no math to judge that by. Undead will almost always be encountered at some point. Just like there will be adventuring days when you never use second wind. Just because an ability isn't universally useful, doesn't mean that it doesn't count. Comparing healing is another waste of time. If you haven't gotten by now that balance is more that just healing I'm not sure what else to say. Where in that quote have I said, "I agree to no feats?" Here are the CR 11 creatures from the MM Behir: Causes saves. Djinni: Causes saves. Efreeti: Causes saves. Gynosphinx: Causes saves. Horned Devil: Causes saves. Remorhaz: Here's one without saves!!! Roc: Causes saves. Only one CR 11 creature doesn't involve saves and the CRs +2/-2 from 11 are similar in the frequency of saves. It's not a maybe you won't. Unless you're white rooming 6-8 encounters with Remorhazes and the like, saves are a part of the adventuring day at that level. ::holds up a mirror:: Because outside of your white room, it is a spell that gets cast, as do many other spells. Clerics don't go walking around casting the same 2 spells over and over again. Or maybe some really, really boring players do that. In my experience the vast majority do not. No it's not. You're sitting here claiming that the numbers for a spell are low and not balanced properly. That's you taking the same numbers we all see and forming an opinion about it that is likely not in line with WotC's design balance. You do need to analyze everything and here's why. If class A(cleric has good utility and social), having low healing and less combat ability when compared to the fighter with its greater combat ability is not a problem. It's part of the class design balance. Yep. The simplest explanation is you are wrong here and the game is balanced properly with regard to the healing spells. First, you can't prove a negative. Second, the chances of a party doing as you describe are somewhere between nil and almost nil. Okay, then you're even much more wrong than you were. Without a subclass the fighter without feats passes the cleric in the 6th fight. Add in subclasses and it happens much sooner. Most clerical subclass abilities deal with social and exploration. Most fighter subclass abilities are combat related. No wonder you're fighting so hard not to include subclasses. Your clerics can barely hold their own in combat with full spellcasting against fighters without a subclass. This is objectively false. The fighters do in fact have subclasses, so you've wasted tons of my time with this nonsense comparison of only base classes. How about you stop wasting my time and use Battle Master for the fighter? I deleted everything else because numbers without subclasses are an irrelevant waste of time and I will no longer entertain discussion along those lines. Battle Masters have increased damage from their superiority dice, and have the specials that come along with the maneuvers. [/QUOTE]
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