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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8863752" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Huh, seems I'm not getting that citation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Pages 275 to 279. They have a 20 step process. It involves multiple calculations. </p><p></p><p>As for your insane ability, of course they don't have a CR for that. Abilities don't get CR and an ability that messes with level breaks CR over its knee, since CR is in relation to level. I can tell you that a DC 17 check starts at CR 11 if you want it based on that, but no ability in the game halves someone's level on a single failed save (for VERY good reasons) so you aren't going to find a balance point listed for that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Citation Needed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, your claim is a waste of time? Because comparing their "damage mitigation" abilities was your claim. I just wanted to discuss healing against monster damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Where I asked you if it was balanced and you said yes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And did you bother looking beyond the MM? Nope. And did you bother with looking at what those saves did? Nope. Because you are comparing a save versus grapple to a save versus damage to a save versus spells (only two of which have any offensive combat capability). Again, you make the same mistake, assuming just because an option exists I MUST account for every single interation of that option, because there is no difference between being grappled, taking damage, or being mildly inconvenienced with a single spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, no self-reflection on your part or admitting to any mistakes you have REPEATEDLY made. </p><p></p><p>Cool. Glad I take my time to respond to you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But they may also not get cast. Again, the option existing doesn't mean that the option is taken. Not seeing a lot of clerics casting Water Walk in the last seven years. But the spell does exist.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you aren't actually arguing against my numbers. You agree that my numbers are true. </p><p></p><p>You are disagreeing that those numbers are a problem. That is a fundamentally different discussion than "those numbers are wrong" which is what you have said, repeatedly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And since "class A" has good utility, decent social, great combat ability and the best healing in the game? Also, again, why am I worried about the Bard's ability to seduce a bar maid when I'm talking about whether the best healing in the game is actually good enough? That is nonsense. I'm not looking at a third-rate healer, I'm looking at the iconic healing class of the game.... and finding it lacking in healing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So everyone who thinks using healing spells in combat is a bad move are wrong? Based on... it being simpler that the game is designed perfectly with no flaws, despite the known flaws? </p><p></p><p>Truly, you are an astounding pillar of logic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can't prove it, but you can state definitively that it is true?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most clerics deal with social and exploration? Seriously? There are 14 official cleric subclasses. I count... 13 that have major abilities devoted to combat applications. And that's ignoring anything above level 6. </p><p></p><p>And, again, Ceteris Paribus.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So an analysis of the base classes is OBJECTIVELY false, because it doesn't use the Battle Master fighter? </p><p></p><p>Would that make them objectively true if I used a Battle Master fighter with Evasive Footwork, Ambush, Tactical Assessment, Grappling Strike, Commanding Presence, Bait and Switch, and Rally? Would that satisfy you with my analysis? And then I could pick a Cleric Subclass to use as well?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8863752, member: 6801228"] Huh, seems I'm not getting that citation. Pages 275 to 279. They have a 20 step process. It involves multiple calculations. As for your insane ability, of course they don't have a CR for that. Abilities don't get CR and an ability that messes with level breaks CR over its knee, since CR is in relation to level. I can tell you that a DC 17 check starts at CR 11 if you want it based on that, but no ability in the game halves someone's level on a single failed save (for VERY good reasons) so you aren't going to find a balance point listed for that. Citation Needed. So, your claim is a waste of time? Because comparing their "damage mitigation" abilities was your claim. I just wanted to discuss healing against monster damage. Where I asked you if it was balanced and you said yes. And did you bother looking beyond the MM? Nope. And did you bother with looking at what those saves did? Nope. Because you are comparing a save versus grapple to a save versus damage to a save versus spells (only two of which have any offensive combat capability). Again, you make the same mistake, assuming just because an option exists I MUST account for every single interation of that option, because there is no difference between being grappled, taking damage, or being mildly inconvenienced with a single spell. So, no self-reflection on your part or admitting to any mistakes you have REPEATEDLY made. Cool. Glad I take my time to respond to you. But they may also not get cast. Again, the option existing doesn't mean that the option is taken. Not seeing a lot of clerics casting Water Walk in the last seven years. But the spell does exist. So, you aren't actually arguing against my numbers. You agree that my numbers are true. You are disagreeing that those numbers are a problem. That is a fundamentally different discussion than "those numbers are wrong" which is what you have said, repeatedly. And since "class A" has good utility, decent social, great combat ability and the best healing in the game? Also, again, why am I worried about the Bard's ability to seduce a bar maid when I'm talking about whether the best healing in the game is actually good enough? That is nonsense. I'm not looking at a third-rate healer, I'm looking at the iconic healing class of the game.... and finding it lacking in healing. So everyone who thinks using healing spells in combat is a bad move are wrong? Based on... it being simpler that the game is designed perfectly with no flaws, despite the known flaws? Truly, you are an astounding pillar of logic. You can't prove it, but you can state definitively that it is true? Most clerics deal with social and exploration? Seriously? There are 14 official cleric subclasses. I count... 13 that have major abilities devoted to combat applications. And that's ignoring anything above level 6. And, again, Ceteris Paribus. So an analysis of the base classes is OBJECTIVELY false, because it doesn't use the Battle Master fighter? Would that make them objectively true if I used a Battle Master fighter with Evasive Footwork, Ambush, Tactical Assessment, Grappling Strike, Commanding Presence, Bait and Switch, and Rally? Would that satisfy you with my analysis? And then I could pick a Cleric Subclass to use as well? [/QUOTE]
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