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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8864276" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Citation Needed since it says it is about creating new monsters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So is Agressive a CR 1 ability or a CR 12 ability? Because "increasing CR" is not the same as "has a CR". The distinction is important, especially since you split my response which covers WHY it is important.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But altering someone's level, the measure of CR, is basically impossible to recursively give an increase to CR. Used to change level 2 to level 1 it would have a far smaller impact than being used to change level 20 to level 10. That's why what you are asking for is impossible, the variability of halving someone's level is too immense. There is no math for that. There cannot be. </p><p></p><p>And just because there are abilities that could theoritically exist that the Designers didn't use or didn't write down, doesn't mean that there is some secrete hidden math to the game. And in fact, I'll note that since Invisibility, Flyby attack, Echolocation, and the ability to Resist or be Immune to turn undead all are given dashs to note that they do not affect CR, that many of those literally millions of abilities (whatever they are) would also not effect CR. Heck, Sunlight Sensitivity doesn't change CR.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>PG 24 of the DMG? Nope.</p><p>PG 24 of the MM? Nope.</p><p>PG 24 of the PHB? Nope. </p><p>PG 24 of Xanathars? Nope. </p><p></p><p>Hmm, well I guess I shouldn't give you the benefit of the doubt then. You made up a page number then said the book is "This is How the Game is Usually Played". So, in other words, you just made up something and declared it true. Which, I suspected considering the number of campaigns I've been in that didn't feature undead at all. So, no, there is no reason to believe that any given party MUST encounter undead. You are once again trying to assert as facts your own warped opinions of what should be counted.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Once more proving you don't know how to analyze impact on combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Detect Poison? Never. </p><p>Purify Food and Drink? Never</p><p>Create Water? Once. </p><p></p><p>And, again, listen to what I am saying. I'm not saying that no cleric ever uses any utility spell. I am saying that they are not REQUIRED to use them. Do you know why I don't see Detect Poison or Purify Food and Drink? Because I essentially never poison food and drink for the party. Why have I almost never seen create water? Because my groups don't track mundane supplies, like rations. The one time I'd seen it, it was used to put out a fire. </p><p></p><p>All you are doing is proving my point. I am not required to account for utility spells, because there is no guarantee that utility spells will need to be used. If they have pure clean water in their waterskins to last the couple of hours they are dungeon delving, then they don't need to create water or purify water.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ceteris Paribus</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet the chances of winning the Powerball would absolutely be calculable. The math is easy if you have all the information. The problem is that you don't have all the information, such as how many tickets were sold and how many winning tickets were in circulation. </p><p></p><p>However, you aren't doing something as simply as basic probability, you are trying to mathematically express opnions and decision-making for an unknownable group. You are essentially claiming math can make you psychic, which it can't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, since you didn't say that my Battle Master was unacceptable, let's clear your mind and give you those subclasses you so desperately, desperately say will make all the difference. That will make this OBJECTIVELY true and make my numbers not a waste of time and energy. I'll even be nice and not use a Cleric subclass that increases damage</p><p></p><p></p><p>Team Battle Master Fighter with Evasive Footwork, Ambush, Tactical Assessment, Grappling Strike, Commanding Presence, Bait and Switch, and Rally. They are using Greatswords and GWM, I could say they increase their AC, but you don't like AC increasing, so I'll say they can get 5d10+10 temp hp per short rest (37.5 temp hp per short rest). You know what, I'll even do what you claim I did for clerics and let the Battlemaster use all their dice for utility as well, doubling or tripling their available dice. Also note at this point I've assumed a 20 str, a 14 charisma, and a 20 con as well as single feat.</p><p></p><p>So, 144.9 damage per two fights, with 174 effective hp. </p><p></p><p>Twilight Cleric. I won't count advantage on Initiative, since the fighter can use Ambush for the same thing as well as all their other maneuvers. Channel divinity is twice between short rests, but since it is an aura not all of them can use it at the same time. So, while they get three rounds of their unique channel divinity (3d6+33 temp hp or 43.5 temp hp) every single fight, the other three clerics can restore spell slots with Harness Divine Power. They can only do it twice each, but that is an additional two 2nd level spell slots for every single cleric. </p><p></p><p>So, a damage underestimate of 167.40 for clerics (remember, this gives Spirit Guardians zero damage on a miss, which is false) for those two fights. An effective 193.5 hp, and two more 2nd level spells than my previous anaylysis (because I wasn't using Channel Divinity before). Oh, and for three fights they could fly, potentially reducing their incoming damage significantly. </p><p></p><p>So now with this OBJECTIVE analysis, using the Battlemaster as you insisted I do, and a cleric subclass that does not increase damage at all.... I'm left with the cleric having more damage, more effective hp, and more spell slots than before. But hey, I used the battlemaster and subclasses, so now these numbers aren't a waste of your time, right? After all, it isn't like you are going to insist on a specific subclass, and specific set of abilities in that subclass, and ban a different subclass all at the same time, right?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8864276, member: 6801228"] Citation Needed since it says it is about creating new monsters. So is Agressive a CR 1 ability or a CR 12 ability? Because "increasing CR" is not the same as "has a CR". The distinction is important, especially since you split my response which covers WHY it is important. But altering someone's level, the measure of CR, is basically impossible to recursively give an increase to CR. Used to change level 2 to level 1 it would have a far smaller impact than being used to change level 20 to level 10. That's why what you are asking for is impossible, the variability of halving someone's level is too immense. There is no math for that. There cannot be. And just because there are abilities that could theoritically exist that the Designers didn't use or didn't write down, doesn't mean that there is some secrete hidden math to the game. And in fact, I'll note that since Invisibility, Flyby attack, Echolocation, and the ability to Resist or be Immune to turn undead all are given dashs to note that they do not affect CR, that many of those literally millions of abilities (whatever they are) would also not effect CR. Heck, Sunlight Sensitivity doesn't change CR. PG 24 of the DMG? Nope. PG 24 of the MM? Nope. PG 24 of the PHB? Nope. PG 24 of Xanathars? Nope. Hmm, well I guess I shouldn't give you the benefit of the doubt then. You made up a page number then said the book is "This is How the Game is Usually Played". So, in other words, you just made up something and declared it true. Which, I suspected considering the number of campaigns I've been in that didn't feature undead at all. So, no, there is no reason to believe that any given party MUST encounter undead. You are once again trying to assert as facts your own warped opinions of what should be counted. Once more proving you don't know how to analyze impact on combat. Detect Poison? Never. Purify Food and Drink? Never Create Water? Once. And, again, listen to what I am saying. I'm not saying that no cleric ever uses any utility spell. I am saying that they are not REQUIRED to use them. Do you know why I don't see Detect Poison or Purify Food and Drink? Because I essentially never poison food and drink for the party. Why have I almost never seen create water? Because my groups don't track mundane supplies, like rations. The one time I'd seen it, it was used to put out a fire. All you are doing is proving my point. I am not required to account for utility spells, because there is no guarantee that utility spells will need to be used. If they have pure clean water in their waterskins to last the couple of hours they are dungeon delving, then they don't need to create water or purify water. Ceteris Paribus And yet the chances of winning the Powerball would absolutely be calculable. The math is easy if you have all the information. The problem is that you don't have all the information, such as how many tickets were sold and how many winning tickets were in circulation. However, you aren't doing something as simply as basic probability, you are trying to mathematically express opnions and decision-making for an unknownable group. You are essentially claiming math can make you psychic, which it can't. Well, since you didn't say that my Battle Master was unacceptable, let's clear your mind and give you those subclasses you so desperately, desperately say will make all the difference. That will make this OBJECTIVELY true and make my numbers not a waste of time and energy. I'll even be nice and not use a Cleric subclass that increases damage Team Battle Master Fighter with Evasive Footwork, Ambush, Tactical Assessment, Grappling Strike, Commanding Presence, Bait and Switch, and Rally. They are using Greatswords and GWM, I could say they increase their AC, but you don't like AC increasing, so I'll say they can get 5d10+10 temp hp per short rest (37.5 temp hp per short rest). You know what, I'll even do what you claim I did for clerics and let the Battlemaster use all their dice for utility as well, doubling or tripling their available dice. Also note at this point I've assumed a 20 str, a 14 charisma, and a 20 con as well as single feat. So, 144.9 damage per two fights, with 174 effective hp. Twilight Cleric. I won't count advantage on Initiative, since the fighter can use Ambush for the same thing as well as all their other maneuvers. Channel divinity is twice between short rests, but since it is an aura not all of them can use it at the same time. So, while they get three rounds of their unique channel divinity (3d6+33 temp hp or 43.5 temp hp) every single fight, the other three clerics can restore spell slots with Harness Divine Power. They can only do it twice each, but that is an additional two 2nd level spell slots for every single cleric. So, a damage underestimate of 167.40 for clerics (remember, this gives Spirit Guardians zero damage on a miss, which is false) for those two fights. An effective 193.5 hp, and two more 2nd level spells than my previous anaylysis (because I wasn't using Channel Divinity before). Oh, and for three fights they could fly, potentially reducing their incoming damage significantly. So now with this OBJECTIVE analysis, using the Battlemaster as you insisted I do, and a cleric subclass that does not increase damage at all.... I'm left with the cleric having more damage, more effective hp, and more spell slots than before. But hey, I used the battlemaster and subclasses, so now these numbers aren't a waste of your time, right? After all, it isn't like you are going to insist on a specific subclass, and specific set of abilities in that subclass, and ban a different subclass all at the same time, right? [/QUOTE]
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