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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8864608" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Using the same page numbers I've given you a dozen times.</p><p></p><p>Average damage is calculated over three rounds, example given is 37+37+90 = 164 / 3 = 54.6. 54.6 is the expected average damage for CR 8 creature.</p><p></p><p>Now, if you want to demand why a CR 8 = 51 to 56 damage, then that would be because level 8 has hp between 59 and 84 for the average party member. There isn't an equal sign, but the math is really clear.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet you still split my point, and then attacked me for making a claim that is true, because supposedly "I know what you mean".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So.... since you said DC 17 that makes it a appropriate for a CR 11 or a CR 12 monster. Done. I told you that the first time you asked. Where's the problem then?</p><p></p><p>Heck, you could likely figure in the amount of damage equivalent the ability does to a level 11 character and use that to figure out how it affects CR. Not exactly rocket science if you demand to know how your homebrew ability works in the math of the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh fun, useless pedantry.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And a strawman! Double word score.</p><p></p><p>Wrong. It isn't that they guess and there was no design involved. It doesn't mean that they are bozos. What it is, is that the math of the game isn't <strong><em>hidden</em></strong>. It is right there in plain sight. Just because they didn't list every possibly ability in the game doesn't mean there is <strong><em>hidden</em></strong> math.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes we do. It is blatantly obvious why these abilities don't adjust CR.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't houserule anything. There was no need for the utility, so it doesn't get used. Which goes back to my initial question. WHAT utility am I REQUIRED to account for in an analysis. Because whether or not utility gets used DEPENDS on the the situation.</p><p></p><p>That isn't houseruling, that's adventure design.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet you have howled and wailed that I didn't include it, demanding that I factor it in. If I'm not required to factor it in... why the gnashing of teeth?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, "Out of Many, One" is not a term used in analysis of complex systems. That's on the US Money, to denote the United part of the countries history. It has no bearing on the discussion.</p><p></p><p>Ceteris Paribus IS used in these sorts of analysis, and has bearing on why I was analyzing as I did.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really? I didn't build a "good" fighter? But that isn't possible. The game is balanced. How are you determining that these fighter's aren't good? How do you know that Menacing Attack is better than Rally? Are you accounting for all party resources? Because balance is a range accounting for all party resources and any two teams of adventurers would be balanced....</p><p></p><p>Oh wait. Despite you saying that, that was a lie. At this point a rather blatant lie. Because it doesn't count if I use the champion (which I never did) and it doesn't count if I build a utility battlemaster (which I did) because it only counts if I build a "proper" battlemaster with the "proper" equipment and then take the "proper" feats (in a scenario that was initially no feats for team fighter) and THEN I'd be proven that ANY two teams are balanced against each other.</p><p></p><p>And it turns out, I even cheated in favor of team fighter, giving them more stats than they could have. Though, I'm curious why 20 Con is useless when the clerics are supposed to die in fight number two with their "measly" 150 effective hp, and dropping the fighter to 16 Con would leave them with fewer than 120 effective hp. Heck, you want Great Weapon Master, Lucky, Heavy Armor Mastery, Sentinel on a Variant Human Battle Master fighter wielding a greatsword with Precision attack, Menacing Attack, Sweeping Attack, and Disarming attack. And THAT will prove than any possible two teams are balanced against each other. </p><p></p><p>Can't you see the blatant hypocrisy here? You refuse to accept the analysis of general balance unless this highly specific build is the only one considered for the other side. Yet your original claim was that I can't show that healing is too weak because ANY two parties are balanced and everything is balanced on the party level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8864608, member: 6801228"] Using the same page numbers I've given you a dozen times. Average damage is calculated over three rounds, example given is 37+37+90 = 164 / 3 = 54.6. 54.6 is the expected average damage for CR 8 creature. Now, if you want to demand why a CR 8 = 51 to 56 damage, then that would be because level 8 has hp between 59 and 84 for the average party member. There isn't an equal sign, but the math is really clear. And yet you still split my point, and then attacked me for making a claim that is true, because supposedly "I know what you mean". So.... since you said DC 17 that makes it a appropriate for a CR 11 or a CR 12 monster. Done. I told you that the first time you asked. Where's the problem then? Heck, you could likely figure in the amount of damage equivalent the ability does to a level 11 character and use that to figure out how it affects CR. Not exactly rocket science if you demand to know how your homebrew ability works in the math of the game. Oh fun, useless pedantry. And a strawman! Double word score. Wrong. It isn't that they guess and there was no design involved. It doesn't mean that they are bozos. What it is, is that the math of the game isn't [B][I]hidden[/I][/B]. It is right there in plain sight. Just because they didn't list every possibly ability in the game doesn't mean there is [B][I]hidden[/I][/B] math. Yes we do. It is blatantly obvious why these abilities don't adjust CR. I didn't houserule anything. There was no need for the utility, so it doesn't get used. Which goes back to my initial question. WHAT utility am I REQUIRED to account for in an analysis. Because whether or not utility gets used DEPENDS on the the situation. That isn't houseruling, that's adventure design. And yet you have howled and wailed that I didn't include it, demanding that I factor it in. If I'm not required to factor it in... why the gnashing of teeth? Sorry, "Out of Many, One" is not a term used in analysis of complex systems. That's on the US Money, to denote the United part of the countries history. It has no bearing on the discussion. Ceteris Paribus IS used in these sorts of analysis, and has bearing on why I was analyzing as I did. Really? I didn't build a "good" fighter? But that isn't possible. The game is balanced. How are you determining that these fighter's aren't good? How do you know that Menacing Attack is better than Rally? Are you accounting for all party resources? Because balance is a range accounting for all party resources and any two teams of adventurers would be balanced.... Oh wait. Despite you saying that, that was a lie. At this point a rather blatant lie. Because it doesn't count if I use the champion (which I never did) and it doesn't count if I build a utility battlemaster (which I did) because it only counts if I build a "proper" battlemaster with the "proper" equipment and then take the "proper" feats (in a scenario that was initially no feats for team fighter) and THEN I'd be proven that ANY two teams are balanced against each other. And it turns out, I even cheated in favor of team fighter, giving them more stats than they could have. Though, I'm curious why 20 Con is useless when the clerics are supposed to die in fight number two with their "measly" 150 effective hp, and dropping the fighter to 16 Con would leave them with fewer than 120 effective hp. Heck, you want Great Weapon Master, Lucky, Heavy Armor Mastery, Sentinel on a Variant Human Battle Master fighter wielding a greatsword with Precision attack, Menacing Attack, Sweeping Attack, and Disarming attack. And THAT will prove than any possible two teams are balanced against each other. Can't you see the blatant hypocrisy here? You refuse to accept the analysis of general balance unless this highly specific build is the only one considered for the other side. Yet your original claim was that I can't show that healing is too weak because ANY two parties are balanced and everything is balanced on the party level. [/QUOTE]
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