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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8864760" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So... why do you think the damage is listed as that? Do you think they compared the damage to AC? Maybe they compared the damage versus the player's background? Oh, I know, the secret is you compare the damage against the equipment the party is holding. </p><p></p><p>Of course they don't state that the damage is at the CR because of the health totals. That's because it is obvious. As for hit points being the only measure, of course they aren't. You've heard of multi-variable equations right? Just because I only discussed one variable, and there is more than one variable, doesn't mean the entire thing falls apart.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yet despite your claim there is no math in the DMG... you certainly seem to know exactly how to use the system and what numbers go where. Must be witchcraft, it would be impossible for you to know all that, because the design is completely hidden and incomprehensible! (By the way, the explanation might come in with that whole section about defensive vs offensive CR, and the discussion of how to average those, averages being a math thing.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Uh huh, because it is vitally important to clarify that it is a fact that theoritical abilities could exist. Obviously no one could otherwise understand that people can make up whatever abilities they want. And you wouldn't be using your phrasing to try and make it sound like I'm spouting theories, when I didn't actually propose a theory, but called the abilities "theoritical", which is an indication that they don't actually exist in the text of the game. Which, by the way, is a fact.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Invisibility is only advantage for a single attack. It doesn't exist long enough to affect their damage output more than getting a successful stealth roll or any other reason for advantage. There is no math for this, in the terms of a formula, but the reasoning is obvious. Meanwhile, while the disadvantage to being attacked might matter, since invisibility almost always disappears when an attack is made, the defensive use only applies as long as the enemy is out of the fight, and again, usually doesn't last long enough. You keep screaming "Math!math!math!" but there is no "abilities over time" equation to write out. </p><p></p><p>Meanwhile. look at Constrict. It is an attack, so you deal damage when you use it unlike casting invisibility. It auto-restrains, and the enemy has to use their action to escape (not attacking you) meanwhile they have disadvantage to attack you. It is an AC of +1 effectively, because it only affects a single party member for an extended period of the fight, so it is only 1/4 as effective as permanent disadvantage. </p><p></p><p>And Blood Frenzy is going to almost always be in use, the only time it isn't is when the party is at completely full hp, which is incredibly rare. And while the effect varies depending on AC, dozens of articles have been written about how advantage is (on average) between a +4 and a+5. </p><p></p><p>Sure, you aren't going to get this ∫v0dv=Vb∫t0dtm0−bt anywhere in the book, but that's because this stuff isn't physics. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or we aren't out of town for longer than a few days and everyone tends to buy a month of rations and restock in town all the time, because rations are cheap. And I don't feel like a couple of silver every so often is really breaking anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It doesn't literally mean all other things are equal, it means you HOLD all other things as being equal. Such as assuming that subclasses will have equal impact on the base class. Because if you assume all subclasses are about equal within the class, then assume every subclass affects the class power equally, then you can just compare the classes. </p><p></p><p>If you don't then you can't compare the classes without first comparing the subclasses within the class, finding their balance, then looking to the classes, but then you also have to determine if the subclass has a greater or less effect on the main class, and then find a way to balance THAT. It's a huge complicated mess that was completely unnecessary for ANY point beyond your red herrings to get me to stop talking about healing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So your claim that all teams are equally balanced is false. Still. I don't care how you phrase it, the very fact you lost your crap over the idea that I DARED to use the champion, followed by your tirade about how I completely mis-built the battlemasters just highlights that single fact. Because a Team can be comprised of all one class, and just this alone shows that a team of all champions wouldn't be balanced against a team of all Battlemasters. </p><p></p><p>I don't need to prove it likely, I just need to prove it true. Because the moment it is true that not all teams are balanced against each other, you complaints about my analysis of healing collapse. Because team's aren't balanced, so I don't need to assume that the team balances the cleric's ability to restore HP.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8864760, member: 6801228"] So... why do you think the damage is listed as that? Do you think they compared the damage to AC? Maybe they compared the damage versus the player's background? Oh, I know, the secret is you compare the damage against the equipment the party is holding. Of course they don't state that the damage is at the CR because of the health totals. That's because it is obvious. As for hit points being the only measure, of course they aren't. You've heard of multi-variable equations right? Just because I only discussed one variable, and there is more than one variable, doesn't mean the entire thing falls apart. Yet despite your claim there is no math in the DMG... you certainly seem to know exactly how to use the system and what numbers go where. Must be witchcraft, it would be impossible for you to know all that, because the design is completely hidden and incomprehensible! (By the way, the explanation might come in with that whole section about defensive vs offensive CR, and the discussion of how to average those, averages being a math thing.) Uh huh, because it is vitally important to clarify that it is a fact that theoritical abilities could exist. Obviously no one could otherwise understand that people can make up whatever abilities they want. And you wouldn't be using your phrasing to try and make it sound like I'm spouting theories, when I didn't actually propose a theory, but called the abilities "theoritical", which is an indication that they don't actually exist in the text of the game. Which, by the way, is a fact. Invisibility is only advantage for a single attack. It doesn't exist long enough to affect their damage output more than getting a successful stealth roll or any other reason for advantage. There is no math for this, in the terms of a formula, but the reasoning is obvious. Meanwhile, while the disadvantage to being attacked might matter, since invisibility almost always disappears when an attack is made, the defensive use only applies as long as the enemy is out of the fight, and again, usually doesn't last long enough. You keep screaming "Math!math!math!" but there is no "abilities over time" equation to write out. Meanwhile. look at Constrict. It is an attack, so you deal damage when you use it unlike casting invisibility. It auto-restrains, and the enemy has to use their action to escape (not attacking you) meanwhile they have disadvantage to attack you. It is an AC of +1 effectively, because it only affects a single party member for an extended period of the fight, so it is only 1/4 as effective as permanent disadvantage. And Blood Frenzy is going to almost always be in use, the only time it isn't is when the party is at completely full hp, which is incredibly rare. And while the effect varies depending on AC, dozens of articles have been written about how advantage is (on average) between a +4 and a+5. Sure, you aren't going to get this ∫v0dv=Vb∫t0dtm0−bt anywhere in the book, but that's because this stuff isn't physics. Or we aren't out of town for longer than a few days and everyone tends to buy a month of rations and restock in town all the time, because rations are cheap. And I don't feel like a couple of silver every so often is really breaking anything. It doesn't literally mean all other things are equal, it means you HOLD all other things as being equal. Such as assuming that subclasses will have equal impact on the base class. Because if you assume all subclasses are about equal within the class, then assume every subclass affects the class power equally, then you can just compare the classes. If you don't then you can't compare the classes without first comparing the subclasses within the class, finding their balance, then looking to the classes, but then you also have to determine if the subclass has a greater or less effect on the main class, and then find a way to balance THAT. It's a huge complicated mess that was completely unnecessary for ANY point beyond your red herrings to get me to stop talking about healing. So your claim that all teams are equally balanced is false. Still. I don't care how you phrase it, the very fact you lost your crap over the idea that I DARED to use the champion, followed by your tirade about how I completely mis-built the battlemasters just highlights that single fact. Because a Team can be comprised of all one class, and just this alone shows that a team of all champions wouldn't be balanced against a team of all Battlemasters. I don't need to prove it likely, I just need to prove it true. Because the moment it is true that not all teams are balanced against each other, you complaints about my analysis of healing collapse. Because team's aren't balanced, so I don't need to assume that the team balances the cleric's ability to restore HP. [/QUOTE]
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