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<blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 2723946" data-attributes="member: 2013"><p>Personally, I don't buy this argument... at least not if you read it as "being released now" (instead of "already released"). When d20 was first released, there was a wave of garbage released. However, as time passed, people got more and more discriminating in what they purchased, and in general, companies had to raise their standards or die. Most of the "poorer quality" companies are long gone from the d20 scene, and even the high-quality ones have gotten better.</p><p></p><p>Again, provided you're including "backlist" titles in this, fine. In terms of new material coming out... honestly, there's not nearly as much coming out as there used to be. As was already mentioned, though, there is the little matter of finding "untilled ground." Even the best book for Dwarves or Dragons or what have you is not going to be well-received because, well, there's already 3 or 4 or 10 out there, how much more stuff can I pull out of "yet another one?"</p><p></p><p>Hey, I'm one of those crazy PDF publishers. And I think it's worth noting that nearly all of the major d20 players - WotC included - have (albeit in many cases reluctantly) embraced PDF publishing at this point (if nothing else, as a supplemental source of revenue).</p><p></p><p>I disagree. Again, this argument is 5 years out of date... these days (at least in print), there's basically WotC, SSS/Malhavoc, Mongoose, Green Ronin, and Troll Lord (and to a smaller degree, Bastion Press and Bad Axe Games are still around, if I'm not mistaken). Many of the formerly big names are gone... AEG has gotten out. Atlas Games has gotten out. Mystic Eye basically collapsed (due to health problems with both founders). I'm probably leaving some people out of that list, but in general, it seems to me that the number of producers is way down from even a couple of years ago.</p><p>To be honest, a LOT of this is due to the older gamers themselves. What do you CONSTANTLY hear on RPG.net and ENworld every time an introductory product is introduced? "This is crap! I already know this! Cater to me, the experienced gamer - I don't have time to deal with the inexperienced younger generation!" The older generation villifies introductory products, and won't support them - by which I don't mean buying them for themselves, I mean that because they don't happen to need the material, they won't consider buying it - not even for their kids, or a niece or nephew or what have you. The "younger audience" has to rely on birthday presents, etc. to get into the game and those come from the "older audience" and if the older audience refuses to buy "on principle" then there's no way to get the stuff into the hands of the young. That's the way it is.</p><p></p><p>As to the older audience buys less books, this is probably true... while older folk have more disposable income, they have less time. Which means they're able to buy more expensive books, but have time to read (and thus buy) fewer of them. In my mind, this is largely responsible for the recent spate of "super-huge hardbacks" that cost ungodly sums of money. Single product, high price... that caters to the older folks who have disposable income but no time. Of course, it has the problem of "shutting out" the "young 'uns" who we in theory should be recruiting because they have lots of time, but little in the way of disposable income.</p><p></p><p>There's also the problem of modern business demands... the modern business demands escalating profits, quarter-after-quarter. No long-term plans, we need to squeeze every drop we can out today, and if it screws us tomorrow, that's too bad. IMO, it would be a healthy thing long-term to try to grow the gamer base by pushing inexpensive introductory products. However, I recognize that because these products are inexpensive, there's less money to be made, and most companies are unwilling/unable to make less money today even if it will make them able to make more money tomorrow (because bills come due today, not tomorrow). I am still working on finishing up my Basic GM's Guide for Lite Fantasy (I have the player's guide out), on the theory that since I'm a one-man shop and not beholden to anyone in terms of profits, I have an obligation to fill the void that a profit-driven company simply cannot by its nature. This is personal more than business - I have received so much richness in my life from gaming that I feel personally responsible to finish creating some sort of vehicle - flawed and imperfect though it may be - to at least give youngsters a chance to be introduced to gaming.</p><p></p><p>You see, I think it should be the other way around. PC Games have made role-playing games more mainstream, more accepted. Why aren't we tapping into the audience that thought RPG games were suck until they tried Warcraft/Everquest/etc.?</p><p>Agreed. But then, I don't recall anyone promoting the hobby in the late 70's/early 80's, either. I picked up an interest in finding out about D&D from reading "The Winner's Guide to Board Games" published by Playboy Press. It was a book of several hundred pages that laid out basic rules and strategies ranging from basic to advanced for essentially every tabletop game in existence at the time, from Mastermind to Chess to Risk to Diplomacy to Cosmic Encounter to Nuclear War... to D&D.</p><p></p><p>Part of this is a side-effect of companies needing to show a profit now and there being a lot of companies "in the game." Back in the day, everyone ran Keep on the Borderlands because that's all there was. That's why we all have that shared experience. I'm not sure that's possible today, because no one company/product can be the starting point for everyone... there are too many choices.</p><p></p><p>Will never happen. When the d20 license added the standards clause, you saw a huge hue and cry. The problem with having a "centralized company" is that writers are, by and large, creative types, and creative types despise having to let someone else tell them what is and is not acceptable. Besides, who is going to fund the centralized company? How will you trust them? The problem with standards is everyone thinks their way is the One True Way and so you'll never get consensus. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /></p><p></p><p>This is why I never announce a release date unless that release date is in the past (or "today"). <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>The problem is, how do you get to know your audience? Messageboards can be disproportionately skewed by a few loudly squeaking wheels - the squeaky wheels want X, but 95% of your audience wants Y. Worse, every time I've seen a survey of "what do you want" on RPG.net or ENWorld, we wind up with 20 answers, each with 5% of the vote. I submit to you that the audience is so diverse and fractured, it is well nigh impossible to get a product that will even appeal to a majority of them, much less all of them.</p><p></p><p>IMO, there are some valid complaints there, and some less than valid ones. There's my 2 cents. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>--The Sigil</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Sigil, post: 2723946, member: 2013"] Personally, I don't buy this argument... at least not if you read it as "being released now" (instead of "already released"). When d20 was first released, there was a wave of garbage released. However, as time passed, people got more and more discriminating in what they purchased, and in general, companies had to raise their standards or die. Most of the "poorer quality" companies are long gone from the d20 scene, and even the high-quality ones have gotten better. Again, provided you're including "backlist" titles in this, fine. In terms of new material coming out... honestly, there's not nearly as much coming out as there used to be. As was already mentioned, though, there is the little matter of finding "untilled ground." Even the best book for Dwarves or Dragons or what have you is not going to be well-received because, well, there's already 3 or 4 or 10 out there, how much more stuff can I pull out of "yet another one?" Hey, I'm one of those crazy PDF publishers. And I think it's worth noting that nearly all of the major d20 players - WotC included - have (albeit in many cases reluctantly) embraced PDF publishing at this point (if nothing else, as a supplemental source of revenue). I disagree. Again, this argument is 5 years out of date... these days (at least in print), there's basically WotC, SSS/Malhavoc, Mongoose, Green Ronin, and Troll Lord (and to a smaller degree, Bastion Press and Bad Axe Games are still around, if I'm not mistaken). Many of the formerly big names are gone... AEG has gotten out. Atlas Games has gotten out. Mystic Eye basically collapsed (due to health problems with both founders). I'm probably leaving some people out of that list, but in general, it seems to me that the number of producers is way down from even a couple of years ago. To be honest, a LOT of this is due to the older gamers themselves. What do you CONSTANTLY hear on RPG.net and ENworld every time an introductory product is introduced? "This is crap! I already know this! Cater to me, the experienced gamer - I don't have time to deal with the inexperienced younger generation!" The older generation villifies introductory products, and won't support them - by which I don't mean buying them for themselves, I mean that because they don't happen to need the material, they won't consider buying it - not even for their kids, or a niece or nephew or what have you. The "younger audience" has to rely on birthday presents, etc. to get into the game and those come from the "older audience" and if the older audience refuses to buy "on principle" then there's no way to get the stuff into the hands of the young. That's the way it is. As to the older audience buys less books, this is probably true... while older folk have more disposable income, they have less time. Which means they're able to buy more expensive books, but have time to read (and thus buy) fewer of them. In my mind, this is largely responsible for the recent spate of "super-huge hardbacks" that cost ungodly sums of money. Single product, high price... that caters to the older folks who have disposable income but no time. Of course, it has the problem of "shutting out" the "young 'uns" who we in theory should be recruiting because they have lots of time, but little in the way of disposable income. There's also the problem of modern business demands... the modern business demands escalating profits, quarter-after-quarter. No long-term plans, we need to squeeze every drop we can out today, and if it screws us tomorrow, that's too bad. IMO, it would be a healthy thing long-term to try to grow the gamer base by pushing inexpensive introductory products. However, I recognize that because these products are inexpensive, there's less money to be made, and most companies are unwilling/unable to make less money today even if it will make them able to make more money tomorrow (because bills come due today, not tomorrow). I am still working on finishing up my Basic GM's Guide for Lite Fantasy (I have the player's guide out), on the theory that since I'm a one-man shop and not beholden to anyone in terms of profits, I have an obligation to fill the void that a profit-driven company simply cannot by its nature. This is personal more than business - I have received so much richness in my life from gaming that I feel personally responsible to finish creating some sort of vehicle - flawed and imperfect though it may be - to at least give youngsters a chance to be introduced to gaming. You see, I think it should be the other way around. PC Games have made role-playing games more mainstream, more accepted. Why aren't we tapping into the audience that thought RPG games were suck until they tried Warcraft/Everquest/etc.? Agreed. But then, I don't recall anyone promoting the hobby in the late 70's/early 80's, either. I picked up an interest in finding out about D&D from reading "The Winner's Guide to Board Games" published by Playboy Press. It was a book of several hundred pages that laid out basic rules and strategies ranging from basic to advanced for essentially every tabletop game in existence at the time, from Mastermind to Chess to Risk to Diplomacy to Cosmic Encounter to Nuclear War... to D&D. Part of this is a side-effect of companies needing to show a profit now and there being a lot of companies "in the game." Back in the day, everyone ran Keep on the Borderlands because that's all there was. That's why we all have that shared experience. I'm not sure that's possible today, because no one company/product can be the starting point for everyone... there are too many choices. Will never happen. When the d20 license added the standards clause, you saw a huge hue and cry. The problem with having a "centralized company" is that writers are, by and large, creative types, and creative types despise having to let someone else tell them what is and is not acceptable. Besides, who is going to fund the centralized company? How will you trust them? The problem with standards is everyone thinks their way is the One True Way and so you'll never get consensus. :( This is why I never announce a release date unless that release date is in the past (or "today"). ;) The problem is, how do you get to know your audience? Messageboards can be disproportionately skewed by a few loudly squeaking wheels - the squeaky wheels want X, but 95% of your audience wants Y. Worse, every time I've seen a survey of "what do you want" on RPG.net or ENWorld, we wind up with 20 answers, each with 5% of the vote. I submit to you that the audience is so diverse and fractured, it is well nigh impossible to get a product that will even appeal to a majority of them, much less all of them. IMO, there are some valid complaints there, and some less than valid ones. There's my 2 cents. ;) --The Sigil [/QUOTE]
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