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<blockquote data-quote="fusangite" data-source="post: 3036633" data-attributes="member: 7240"><p>It just seems weird to me that 100% of a game like Axis & Allies is metagaming; indeed, 100% of most games is metagaming. It just seems like it's weird to give this name to the main activity that makes up gaming. But I do get how you are using the terminology. It just seems unnatural to me to define stuff that you only do in RPGs as "gaming" and stuff that you do in all games "metagaming."I agree with the overall thrust of your post and find it to be pretty much in tune with my own thinking. But this is, frankly, a house rule of yours and should be understood as such. Much as the Know(*) skills get on my nerves, they are nevertheless part of the core.Now I think we're going somewhere interesting. Maybe this is a debate about verisimilitude in representing how knowledge works in fantasy/premodern societies. </p><p></p><p>I tend to see premodern/fantasy societies' worldviews as essentially empirical and accurate. Sure, the theories used to stitch these things together were often incorrectly premised but the fact is that Ptolmaic astronomy could have got us to the moon. But many people see premoderns as people with no real acquaintance with the physical laws of the world in which they were situated. They see premodern folklore with its monstrosities and saints as a sign that premoderns had a tenuous grip on the most basic aspects of reality. </p><p></p><p>I wonder if this difference in assumptions about how non-modern people think might be underpinning some of our debate, which is, fundamentally, a debate about how to approximate the level of knowledge a character might have about the laws and contents of the physical world.I can't speak for painandgreed but I would find acting on this information to be an egregious breach of the social contract of my games.</p><p></p><p>The whole reason players give eachother hints in my games is because we all recognize it's so damned tough to play a character authentically that we need all the help we can get. My appreciation of hints is premised on how <em>different and separate</em> my character is from me. It seems to me that if one thinks one can do a decent job solo inhabiting such a radically different being, this comfort is premised on the character being, in certain fundamental ways, more like the player than not.Hear hear! Hence my willingness to have "secret" information out there for everyone to hear.How do you like my theory above? Could this be about replicating a sense of ignorance and superstition on the part of the PCs?The more I learn about the social dynamic at your games, the more I am struck by its similarities to the level of immersion and sociability of my groups.You see: I have exactly the same motivation as your DM. I want people to learn how to play their characters. We just have totally opposite pedagogies.Again, opposite pedagogy, same goal. What I want is for people to pay attention to details they notice in the game. And the way I motivate them to do this is to create situations in which they can discuss them with one another.Go ahead. I'd be most entertained, even more so if you can get them to join ENW and liven things up.But why should this be? Given the fundamental unknowability of one's own character, why shouldn't you get all the help you can to guess what he would think?Here's where I would split the hair: if the instruction to flank is predicated on the PC also moving into a position at a future point in the round, it is cheating. But, if the PC who is doing the flanking is already in position, it is not. This is because one entails giving the other player foreknowledge of his character's moves that the PC could not reasonably have, whereas the other simply entials reminding the other player of the immediate application of the laws of the universe.</p><p></p><p>One thing I'm curious about: does your group use spells like <em>Status</em> and <em>Rary's Telepathic Bond</em> more because of the general spirit of the game?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="fusangite, post: 3036633, member: 7240"] It just seems weird to me that 100% of a game like Axis & Allies is metagaming; indeed, 100% of most games is metagaming. It just seems like it's weird to give this name to the main activity that makes up gaming. But I do get how you are using the terminology. It just seems unnatural to me to define stuff that you only do in RPGs as "gaming" and stuff that you do in all games "metagaming."I agree with the overall thrust of your post and find it to be pretty much in tune with my own thinking. But this is, frankly, a house rule of yours and should be understood as such. Much as the Know(*) skills get on my nerves, they are nevertheless part of the core.Now I think we're going somewhere interesting. Maybe this is a debate about verisimilitude in representing how knowledge works in fantasy/premodern societies. I tend to see premodern/fantasy societies' worldviews as essentially empirical and accurate. Sure, the theories used to stitch these things together were often incorrectly premised but the fact is that Ptolmaic astronomy could have got us to the moon. But many people see premoderns as people with no real acquaintance with the physical laws of the world in which they were situated. They see premodern folklore with its monstrosities and saints as a sign that premoderns had a tenuous grip on the most basic aspects of reality. I wonder if this difference in assumptions about how non-modern people think might be underpinning some of our debate, which is, fundamentally, a debate about how to approximate the level of knowledge a character might have about the laws and contents of the physical world.I can't speak for painandgreed but I would find acting on this information to be an egregious breach of the social contract of my games. The whole reason players give eachother hints in my games is because we all recognize it's so damned tough to play a character authentically that we need all the help we can get. My appreciation of hints is premised on how [i]different and separate[/i] my character is from me. It seems to me that if one thinks one can do a decent job solo inhabiting such a radically different being, this comfort is premised on the character being, in certain fundamental ways, more like the player than not.Hear hear! Hence my willingness to have "secret" information out there for everyone to hear.How do you like my theory above? Could this be about replicating a sense of ignorance and superstition on the part of the PCs?The more I learn about the social dynamic at your games, the more I am struck by its similarities to the level of immersion and sociability of my groups.You see: I have exactly the same motivation as your DM. I want people to learn how to play their characters. We just have totally opposite pedagogies.Again, opposite pedagogy, same goal. What I want is for people to pay attention to details they notice in the game. And the way I motivate them to do this is to create situations in which they can discuss them with one another.Go ahead. I'd be most entertained, even more so if you can get them to join ENW and liven things up.But why should this be? Given the fundamental unknowability of one's own character, why shouldn't you get all the help you can to guess what he would think?Here's where I would split the hair: if the instruction to flank is predicated on the PC also moving into a position at a future point in the round, it is cheating. But, if the PC who is doing the flanking is already in position, it is not. This is because one entails giving the other player foreknowledge of his character's moves that the PC could not reasonably have, whereas the other simply entials reminding the other player of the immediate application of the laws of the universe. One thing I'm curious about: does your group use spells like [i]Status[/i] and [i]Rary's Telepathic Bond[/i] more because of the general spirit of the game? [/QUOTE]
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