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Deities in D&D: Gods as Tulpas versus Gods as Progenitors
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8850637" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I wouldn't call such gods unknowable, or at least that wasn't my intent. Transcendental beings can still be knowable, one just does not come to know them purely through direct observation. Revelation and theoretical philosophy/theology become important sources of knowledge, and the former is a lot more practical in D&D universes where divination magic is explicitly real. More or less, it is the difference between empirical knowledge (and inductive reasoning) vs. abstract knowledge (and deductive reasoning.)</p><p></p><p>And yes, progenitor is part of it, but not much the <em>point,</em> if that makes sense. That is, these are gods who create, yes, but the point is to examine what it means for Justice or Hope to be sapient, divine, powerful. How does the world form and change in such a context? How would a deity-as-concept respond to the messiness and imperfection of a world that doesn't cleanly reflect their essential nature? Etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I personally never got that sense for mantling, or at least I wouldn't consider that a <em>successful</em> example if it did, in fact, result in the destruction of the Champion of Cyrodiil's ego.</p><p></p><p>The way it is usually phrased is that one must "walk the steps of the dead," but there are theories that this is not <em>necessary,</em> simply a way many have done it. If this is true, then the idea may be more akin to "taking up another's story" that has ended prematurely. Instead of allowing that story to wither away in obscurity, then, "mantling" allows one to resume it, and take it in new directions.</p><p></p><p>This is especially important for the ninth Divine, Talos. Talos is a mortal who ascended to godhood (unless you believe the Thalmor and...yeah you shouldn't do that, they're fascist bungholes.) He did so in various ways, but one of them was by mantling the <em>dead</em> god Lorkhan, who is effectively the creator-trickster, a Coyote or Loki figure who persuaded/deceived/coerced/convinced most of the other immortal spirits to invest their eternal-ness into making a mortal world, in which time would flow and things could actually <em>change</em> ("prior" to this, if "prior" can have meaning in this context, time did not pass in the usual sense: existence was a soup of past, present, ant future all mingled together, each influencing the others.) For his "deceit," Lorkhan was slain, his heart (divine spark) torn out and buried when it couldn't be destroyed. So there is a massive conquering-hero/noble-creator/trickster-underdog shaped <em>hole</em> in the narrative of existence, a story left only half-finished. By mantling a dead power rather than a living one, you don't need to <em>subsume</em> yourself; you just need to pick up enough of their trappings to "count" as them metaphysically. From then on, <em>you</em> get to decide what it means to be that being, and as long as your decisions aren't <em>too</em> radical too fast, you will always be correct, because you <em>are</em> that being, and a sapient being can always change who they are, even the gods (in Tamriel, anyway.)</p><p></p><p>Something to note, here, is that the original source of the idea of "mantling" actually comes from the Old Testament, specifically the story of Elijah and Elisha. Elisha was Elijah's student, but he was also Elijah's close friend. When he knew it was time for Elijah to go to heaven (one of the very few individuals to go <em>bodily</em>), he asked for a "double portion" of Elijah's spirit, and was essentially told "okay, but if you aren't worthy you will get nothing." He was, of course, worthy, and took up the mannerisms, lifestyle, and (most importantly) <em>the distinctive clothing</em> of his master. He was, in one sense, "becoming" Elijah, while at the same time being still fully himself.</p><p></p><p>So, "mantling" someone who is <em>alive</em> (which was... technically sort of true with Sheogorath) is a dangerous and potentially self-destructive thing, but all forms of apotheosis carry risk in Tamriel and elsewhere. (One of the other Tamrielic ways, CHIM, usually results in the would-be practitioner <em>deleting herself from existence,</em> called "zero-summing." They just instantly disappear in a puff of logic, like God does in the Babelfish vignette from Hitchhiker's Guide.) To become eternal, godly, one must be willing to risk not just being terminal, since that is already the human condition, but outright <em>terminated.</em> Whether the Champion of Cyrodiil was lost in Sheogorath or not is, I'm sure, a matter of great debate.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8850637, member: 6790260"] I wouldn't call such gods unknowable, or at least that wasn't my intent. Transcendental beings can still be knowable, one just does not come to know them purely through direct observation. Revelation and theoretical philosophy/theology become important sources of knowledge, and the former is a lot more practical in D&D universes where divination magic is explicitly real. More or less, it is the difference between empirical knowledge (and inductive reasoning) vs. abstract knowledge (and deductive reasoning.) And yes, progenitor is part of it, but not much the [I]point,[/I] if that makes sense. That is, these are gods who create, yes, but the point is to examine what it means for Justice or Hope to be sapient, divine, powerful. How does the world form and change in such a context? How would a deity-as-concept respond to the messiness and imperfection of a world that doesn't cleanly reflect their essential nature? Etc. I personally never got that sense for mantling, or at least I wouldn't consider that a [I]successful[/I] example if it did, in fact, result in the destruction of the Champion of Cyrodiil's ego. The way it is usually phrased is that one must "walk the steps of the dead," but there are theories that this is not [I]necessary,[/I] simply a way many have done it. If this is true, then the idea may be more akin to "taking up another's story" that has ended prematurely. Instead of allowing that story to wither away in obscurity, then, "mantling" allows one to resume it, and take it in new directions. This is especially important for the ninth Divine, Talos. Talos is a mortal who ascended to godhood (unless you believe the Thalmor and...yeah you shouldn't do that, they're fascist bungholes.) He did so in various ways, but one of them was by mantling the [I]dead[/I] god Lorkhan, who is effectively the creator-trickster, a Coyote or Loki figure who persuaded/deceived/coerced/convinced most of the other immortal spirits to invest their eternal-ness into making a mortal world, in which time would flow and things could actually [I]change[/I] ("prior" to this, if "prior" can have meaning in this context, time did not pass in the usual sense: existence was a soup of past, present, ant future all mingled together, each influencing the others.) For his "deceit," Lorkhan was slain, his heart (divine spark) torn out and buried when it couldn't be destroyed. So there is a massive conquering-hero/noble-creator/trickster-underdog shaped [I]hole[/I] in the narrative of existence, a story left only half-finished. By mantling a dead power rather than a living one, you don't need to [I]subsume[/I] yourself; you just need to pick up enough of their trappings to "count" as them metaphysically. From then on, [I]you[/I] get to decide what it means to be that being, and as long as your decisions aren't [I]too[/I] radical too fast, you will always be correct, because you [I]are[/I] that being, and a sapient being can always change who they are, even the gods (in Tamriel, anyway.) Something to note, here, is that the original source of the idea of "mantling" actually comes from the Old Testament, specifically the story of Elijah and Elisha. Elisha was Elijah's student, but he was also Elijah's close friend. When he knew it was time for Elijah to go to heaven (one of the very few individuals to go [I]bodily[/I]), he asked for a "double portion" of Elijah's spirit, and was essentially told "okay, but if you aren't worthy you will get nothing." He was, of course, worthy, and took up the mannerisms, lifestyle, and (most importantly) [I]the distinctive clothing[/I] of his master. He was, in one sense, "becoming" Elijah, while at the same time being still fully himself. So, "mantling" someone who is [I]alive[/I] (which was... technically sort of true with Sheogorath) is a dangerous and potentially self-destructive thing, but all forms of apotheosis carry risk in Tamriel and elsewhere. (One of the other Tamrielic ways, CHIM, usually results in the would-be practitioner [I]deleting herself from existence,[/I] called "zero-summing." They just instantly disappear in a puff of logic, like God does in the Babelfish vignette from Hitchhiker's Guide.) To become eternal, godly, one must be willing to risk not just being terminal, since that is already the human condition, but outright [I]terminated.[/I] Whether the Champion of Cyrodiil was lost in Sheogorath or not is, I'm sure, a matter of great debate. [/QUOTE]
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