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Did I discover the Left Wing and Right Wing of D&D gaming styles?
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<blockquote data-quote="fusangite" data-source="post: 1989562" data-attributes="member: 7240"><p>Fair enough. But I do think it is interesting and positive that as Plane Sailing has identified, we really have two divisions, not one and that we're moving from a discussion in which there is one axis to one in which there are two. There appears to be a <strong>coherence</strong> axis and a <strong>culture</strong> axis and part of the problem with our discourse here is that they were conflated at the beginning of the debate.</p><p></p><p>I can see where you are coming from here in a sense. Correct me if I am wrong in observing that we are once again coming back to this question of suspension of disbelief that underpins much of this discussion. In order for you to suspend disbelief about how people who do not think in a modern way actually thought, you need a very high standard of proof. Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised if educated Eberron fans like shilsen play cosmopolitan games for that very reason. </p><p></p><p>which for some people becomes more fun when combined with gaming.</p><p></p><p>But so are theories about other aspects of the past like material culture. Based on medieval literature, it was assumed for centuries that rich people didn't eat pigs and poor people did. Yet the archaeological record has recently demonstrated that knights ate more pork than anybody else. </p><p></p><p>When it comes to questions of what houses are made out of, what crops are in the fields, what beasts are wild and domestic, what weapons people used, etc. we are engaging in just the same sort of best-guess historical simulation work. However, I know of nobody who would say that because the material past is not recoverable with certainty that there should be no effort made to circumscribe the material objects available in game. The same proof standards you reject in the field of cultural and intellectual history, I would argue, you accept when it comes to material history.</p><p></p><p>I think you're very pessimistic about the capacity to create in-game cultures that are non-modern that still manage to logically deal with issues of dissent, pluralism and individuality.</p><p></p><p>I have been in genre-driven games and I agree that literary genre can be used for this. However, I don't think that one can simply port over ideas of "genre" from literature to gaming with fidelity. Gaming is not literature; the fact that a byproduct of both things is story does not mean that they are especially analogous. There are many things to which one could relate RPGs based on one or two characteristics but the fact is that gaming is not a kind of literature.</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, what about the fantasy novels that strive to populate themselves with characters who think in pre-modern ways? George R R Martin's <em>Song of Ice and Fire</em> and Sean Stewart's <em>Nobody's Son</em> make it a real priority to ensure that the characters' thoughts exist within a cultural context. </p><p></p><p>You have to explain this phrase. What do you mean when you apply "larger mechanical sense" to "genre"?</p><p></p><p>All standards are based on prejudice. Liking (arbitrarily or not) one thing and not liking other things is the only meaningful way we can assemble and structure gaming groups.</p><p></p><p>Could you please expand on this?</p><p></p><p>I have to disagree here. I mean what you say sounds impressive, philosophical and sweeping but doesn't convey the sense in which your statement is true. In what way is a weekly activity of a bunch of guys sitting around drinking beer and rolling dice the "realm of the poet"?</p><p></p><p>What is gaming a genre of? There are genres within gaming but gaming itself is not a literary genre. </p><p></p><p>I would be that if there were egregious breaches in material history/culture in gaming, it would get on your nerves too.</p><p></p><p>That's not determined by the choice of subject matter, though. That is determined by the kind of movie people set out to make. A fantastic highly mythologized Alexander movie that made minimal objective truth claims could be quite fulfilling as could a gritty quasi-documentary about people attempting to thwart Hitler's attempts to mobilize occult power on his side in the 1930s.</p><p></p><p>It all depends on application. Sometimes doing so is a good idea; sometimes it is a bad idea. But, again, I think you are assuming I sit around in my games declaring, "you're not allowed to think that." Usually, in my games, when people's characters take intellectual positions that cannot be culturally contextualized (something exceedingly rare), we just weather it. Sometimes the person's fellow players try to reason with him or her to explain why they don't think such a position is sensible but that's about it. People make mistakes in simulation exercises all the time but when people do, you just move past it; you don't go "take that back!"</p><p></p><p>This gives me a great opportunity to dispel some myths about my style of play but to do so, I need you to tell me what "secular government" means to you. Do you mean "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's?" If so, I don't think you have much to worry about; this idea was, after all, articulated within the Roman Empire on other occasions than the very famous one to which I draw your attention. </p><p></p><p>Or do you mean that the state should not respond to things it thinks demons are doing? This seems very problematic. Demons can cause disease and crop failure. Should the government decide not to address epidemics or crop failure because demons might be involved in them? </p><p></p><p>Or is it that local magistrates should not be involved in religious rituals? This doesn't seem like secular government at all -- prohibiting people's rights to engage in religious observance is quite problematic. </p><p></p><p>Why don't you give me an example of such a theory and then we can hash out how to go about culturally contextualizing it.</p><p></p><p>Again, in what sense? Give me an example of the theory and then we can look at how to contextualize it.</p><p></p><p>So, returning to the question of material history, how do you solve the problem of your PCs importing modern ideas and manufacturing gunpower, mining uranium to produce fissionable materials or building hydroelectric power systems? If it really totally wrong for a GM to in any way seek to limit the importation of modern thought into game worlds, how does one deal with its implications for the material world?</p><p></p><p>Look! Common ground! Yeah -- this is what the people who wanted to do Cosmopolitan play quit over in the D&D game in which I play. We happily conceded that if they wanted to have a bunch of modern ideas, we were not going to stop them. They became annoyed because we argued that these views were held by a small minority in the early 15th century Russia variant in which we were playing.</p><p></p><p>It depends on your standards for such a simulation. I have only ever run one real world simulation. It was set in the 9th century in Dalmatia but my idea of real world simulation was: the world was as people believed it to be. So, I used the literature of the time to determine just what kinds of creatures lived in the world, what kinds of magic could be used, etc. I consider this to actually be the most accurate type of historical simulation one can have -- far moreso than modern the sort of simulation one achieves by imposing modern ideas that demons don't exist, etc. onto people in the past.</p><p></p><p>One of the characters in the game was a Carolingian weather wizard who effectively had variants of D&D spells like <em>Control Weather, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Ice Storm, Sleet Storm</em>, etc. So, I think that if magic is done right, it can enhance rather than detract from a simulation agenda that is based on historical reality.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="fusangite, post: 1989562, member: 7240"] Fair enough. But I do think it is interesting and positive that as Plane Sailing has identified, we really have two divisions, not one and that we're moving from a discussion in which there is one axis to one in which there are two. There appears to be a [b]coherence[/b] axis and a [b]culture[/b] axis and part of the problem with our discourse here is that they were conflated at the beginning of the debate. I can see where you are coming from here in a sense. Correct me if I am wrong in observing that we are once again coming back to this question of suspension of disbelief that underpins much of this discussion. In order for you to suspend disbelief about how people who do not think in a modern way actually thought, you need a very high standard of proof. Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised if educated Eberron fans like shilsen play cosmopolitan games for that very reason. which for some people becomes more fun when combined with gaming. But so are theories about other aspects of the past like material culture. Based on medieval literature, it was assumed for centuries that rich people didn't eat pigs and poor people did. Yet the archaeological record has recently demonstrated that knights ate more pork than anybody else. When it comes to questions of what houses are made out of, what crops are in the fields, what beasts are wild and domestic, what weapons people used, etc. we are engaging in just the same sort of best-guess historical simulation work. However, I know of nobody who would say that because the material past is not recoverable with certainty that there should be no effort made to circumscribe the material objects available in game. The same proof standards you reject in the field of cultural and intellectual history, I would argue, you accept when it comes to material history. I think you're very pessimistic about the capacity to create in-game cultures that are non-modern that still manage to logically deal with issues of dissent, pluralism and individuality. I have been in genre-driven games and I agree that literary genre can be used for this. However, I don't think that one can simply port over ideas of "genre" from literature to gaming with fidelity. Gaming is not literature; the fact that a byproduct of both things is story does not mean that they are especially analogous. There are many things to which one could relate RPGs based on one or two characteristics but the fact is that gaming is not a kind of literature. Furthermore, what about the fantasy novels that strive to populate themselves with characters who think in pre-modern ways? George R R Martin's [i]Song of Ice and Fire[/i] and Sean Stewart's [i]Nobody's Son[/i] make it a real priority to ensure that the characters' thoughts exist within a cultural context. You have to explain this phrase. What do you mean when you apply "larger mechanical sense" to "genre"? All standards are based on prejudice. Liking (arbitrarily or not) one thing and not liking other things is the only meaningful way we can assemble and structure gaming groups. Could you please expand on this? I have to disagree here. I mean what you say sounds impressive, philosophical and sweeping but doesn't convey the sense in which your statement is true. In what way is a weekly activity of a bunch of guys sitting around drinking beer and rolling dice the "realm of the poet"? What is gaming a genre of? There are genres within gaming but gaming itself is not a literary genre. I would be that if there were egregious breaches in material history/culture in gaming, it would get on your nerves too. That's not determined by the choice of subject matter, though. That is determined by the kind of movie people set out to make. A fantastic highly mythologized Alexander movie that made minimal objective truth claims could be quite fulfilling as could a gritty quasi-documentary about people attempting to thwart Hitler's attempts to mobilize occult power on his side in the 1930s. It all depends on application. Sometimes doing so is a good idea; sometimes it is a bad idea. But, again, I think you are assuming I sit around in my games declaring, "you're not allowed to think that." Usually, in my games, when people's characters take intellectual positions that cannot be culturally contextualized (something exceedingly rare), we just weather it. Sometimes the person's fellow players try to reason with him or her to explain why they don't think such a position is sensible but that's about it. People make mistakes in simulation exercises all the time but when people do, you just move past it; you don't go "take that back!" This gives me a great opportunity to dispel some myths about my style of play but to do so, I need you to tell me what "secular government" means to you. Do you mean "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's?" If so, I don't think you have much to worry about; this idea was, after all, articulated within the Roman Empire on other occasions than the very famous one to which I draw your attention. Or do you mean that the state should not respond to things it thinks demons are doing? This seems very problematic. Demons can cause disease and crop failure. Should the government decide not to address epidemics or crop failure because demons might be involved in them? Or is it that local magistrates should not be involved in religious rituals? This doesn't seem like secular government at all -- prohibiting people's rights to engage in religious observance is quite problematic. Why don't you give me an example of such a theory and then we can hash out how to go about culturally contextualizing it. Again, in what sense? Give me an example of the theory and then we can look at how to contextualize it. So, returning to the question of material history, how do you solve the problem of your PCs importing modern ideas and manufacturing gunpower, mining uranium to produce fissionable materials or building hydroelectric power systems? If it really totally wrong for a GM to in any way seek to limit the importation of modern thought into game worlds, how does one deal with its implications for the material world? Look! Common ground! Yeah -- this is what the people who wanted to do Cosmopolitan play quit over in the D&D game in which I play. We happily conceded that if they wanted to have a bunch of modern ideas, we were not going to stop them. They became annoyed because we argued that these views were held by a small minority in the early 15th century Russia variant in which we were playing. It depends on your standards for such a simulation. I have only ever run one real world simulation. It was set in the 9th century in Dalmatia but my idea of real world simulation was: the world was as people believed it to be. So, I used the literature of the time to determine just what kinds of creatures lived in the world, what kinds of magic could be used, etc. I consider this to actually be the most accurate type of historical simulation one can have -- far moreso than modern the sort of simulation one achieves by imposing modern ideas that demons don't exist, etc. onto people in the past. One of the characters in the game was a Carolingian weather wizard who effectively had variants of D&D spells like [i]Control Weather, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Ice Storm, Sleet Storm[/i], etc. So, I think that if magic is done right, it can enhance rather than detract from a simulation agenda that is based on historical reality. [/QUOTE]
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