Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Discussion: Celestials
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Demetrios1453" data-source="post: 7372601" data-attributes="member: 6801060"><p>Thinking it over, here are the reasons why I think we'll be seeing the archons and/or guardinals in MtoF, even if they aren't really covered in the main fluff text (besides the one in the previous post, that the subject matter of the books is reasonably favorable for their inclusion)...</p><p></p><p>1 It's time. MToF will be the third "monster" book of the edition. You only have so much room in an edition's original Monster Manual, so you have to choose what monsters go in there - you have to get all the big name monsters and fan favorites or there will be a big outcry (no matter what you do, there will be an outcry, but you have to design it to minimize that situation). And, whether we like to admit it or not, the Monster Manual is there to give characters something to fight, so you have to, for the most part, focus on hostile foes in the book. Sure, you have a bit of leeway, but if you leave out important hostile foes in order to give a dozen pages or so to celestials, people are going to be annoyed and consider it mostly wasted space that could have been better used. And, face it, parties will rarely get into combat situations with celestials (although there are inevitably evil parties, fallen celestials, tragic misunderstandings, or conflicting orders). And the second monster book, VGtM, was largely, by the designers' admission, monsters they had wanted to get into the MM, but were forced to cut for room. Now with MToF, they should have some leeway to include large groups of non-hostile creatures like the archons and celestials.</p><p></p><p>2 They would be useful to have. Celestials have the second lowest representation of all the monster types so far in 5e (beat out only by the oozes), so it would be useful to expand on the type - and we have two ready subtypes waiting in the wings. Plus, as they are summonable through spells, and there are so few of them now, detailing more of them gives greater variety for the types of celestials that can be summoned. Also they would be quite useful as party allies in higher-level and/or planar campaigns.</p><p></p><p>3 They are traditional creatures in the game. Archons have been around since 1e and guardinals since 2e. These are no Johnny-come-latlies to the game, but creatures that have been around for awhile and are familiar with those who have played the game.</p><p></p><p>4 Space constraints aren't as bad one would think. With around seven subtypes for each, and going by similar entries in the MM for the modrons and yugoloths, they could probably be fully covered in around 5 pages of text each. We have around 130 pages for monsters in MtoF, so even together they wouldn't take up a significant amount of space.</p><p></p><p>5 Completeness. The Monster Manual gave us demons, devils, yugoloths, modrons, and slaad. We know the eladrin will be in MtoF. So it seems reasonable to complete the alignment set by adding the archons and guardinals as well (although this would leave out the hapless rilmani, who were always the most colorless of the alignment-based outer planar races, in my opinion)...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Demetrios1453, post: 7372601, member: 6801060"] Thinking it over, here are the reasons why I think we'll be seeing the archons and/or guardinals in MtoF, even if they aren't really covered in the main fluff text (besides the one in the previous post, that the subject matter of the books is reasonably favorable for their inclusion)... 1 It's time. MToF will be the third "monster" book of the edition. You only have so much room in an edition's original Monster Manual, so you have to choose what monsters go in there - you have to get all the big name monsters and fan favorites or there will be a big outcry (no matter what you do, there will be an outcry, but you have to design it to minimize that situation). And, whether we like to admit it or not, the Monster Manual is there to give characters something to fight, so you have to, for the most part, focus on hostile foes in the book. Sure, you have a bit of leeway, but if you leave out important hostile foes in order to give a dozen pages or so to celestials, people are going to be annoyed and consider it mostly wasted space that could have been better used. And, face it, parties will rarely get into combat situations with celestials (although there are inevitably evil parties, fallen celestials, tragic misunderstandings, or conflicting orders). And the second monster book, VGtM, was largely, by the designers' admission, monsters they had wanted to get into the MM, but were forced to cut for room. Now with MToF, they should have some leeway to include large groups of non-hostile creatures like the archons and celestials. 2 They would be useful to have. Celestials have the second lowest representation of all the monster types so far in 5e (beat out only by the oozes), so it would be useful to expand on the type - and we have two ready subtypes waiting in the wings. Plus, as they are summonable through spells, and there are so few of them now, detailing more of them gives greater variety for the types of celestials that can be summoned. Also they would be quite useful as party allies in higher-level and/or planar campaigns. 3 They are traditional creatures in the game. Archons have been around since 1e and guardinals since 2e. These are no Johnny-come-latlies to the game, but creatures that have been around for awhile and are familiar with those who have played the game. 4 Space constraints aren't as bad one would think. With around seven subtypes for each, and going by similar entries in the MM for the modrons and yugoloths, they could probably be fully covered in around 5 pages of text each. We have around 130 pages for monsters in MtoF, so even together they wouldn't take up a significant amount of space. 5 Completeness. The Monster Manual gave us demons, devils, yugoloths, modrons, and slaad. We know the eladrin will be in MtoF. So it seems reasonable to complete the alignment set by adding the archons and guardinals as well (although this would leave out the hapless rilmani, who were always the most colorless of the alignment-based outer planar races, in my opinion)... [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Discussion: Celestials
Top