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Discussion: Devils and Demons in L4W Cosmology
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<blockquote data-quote="Antithetist" data-source="post: 5134231" data-attributes="member: 88443"><p>Right; I'm not arguing that Demons aren't Immortals. I was just expressing my doubts about them being classified as a 'sub-deific force' representative of an alignment. To be honest I have trouble figuring out WHAT they're supposed to be. The write-ups make them sound like they should all be Unaligned and have Intelligence scores of 2, since their behaviour ('their only goal is to destroy as much as they can before they themselves are destroyed') sounds more like that of a rabid dog than a sentient being with an ego and faculties of reason and will.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> I never meant to imply that Baator and Tanar'ri were ruled by deities, or that they weren't self-serving. But still, when it comes to divine politics, they are liable to take a part. If a powerful entity out there is pursuing an agenda of brutal domination and tyranny, the Baatezu are going to be well-disposed to him. His actions are essentially pleasing to them, and there's every chance that they will forge an alliance with him. If they see a chance to spread their influence, there's every chance that they'd even offer him their support for free. If, in the future, they see a chance to subjugate him and take more power for themselves, or if he crosses them, then, sure, the alliance may not hold; those are implicit dangers in any ventures in Infernal politics, but that doesn't change the fact that the Baatezu (and the Tanar'ri) are fundamentally capable of making common cause with an ally. </p><p></p><p> I'm not trying to say that the Baatezu and Tanar'ri aren't selfish, or that they don't crave power, but ultimately they are devoted to things bigger than themselves. Everything a Baatezu does (even in the methods by which it schemes for personal advancement; twisting laws, abusing its subordinates and plotting against its superiors) is ultimately dedicated to the Baatorian ideal. Everything a Tanar'ri does (even as it, too, schemes for personal advancement; with pre-emptive acts of paranoid brutality against potential threats and direct, violent assertions of its own power and will) is ultimately dedicated to the Abyssal ideal. </p><p></p><p> </p><p> By contrast, the Yugoloths simply do not have the capability to make common cause, because they <em>have</em> no cause. Each and every Yugoloth has one priority, and one priority only: personal power. Yugoloths are dedicated to nothing. At their core is the utter nihilism of the Gray Waste. That's why, although anybody can play at being a self-serving mercenary, and the Baatezu and Tanar'ri do it better than many, it's the Yugoloths who made it into a true art form.</p><p></p><p> This was the distinction that I was trying to make about 4E devils. They lack the essential nihilism of the Yugoloths, but what they have in common with them is a certain lack of grand purpose. They're just a force of sheer malignance - pure will to power. Thus, I can easily see them rivalling the good old Yugoloths when it came to mercenary endeavours.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Antithetist, post: 5134231, member: 88443"] Right; I'm not arguing that Demons aren't Immortals. I was just expressing my doubts about them being classified as a 'sub-deific force' representative of an alignment. To be honest I have trouble figuring out WHAT they're supposed to be. The write-ups make them sound like they should all be Unaligned and have Intelligence scores of 2, since their behaviour ('their only goal is to destroy as much as they can before they themselves are destroyed') sounds more like that of a rabid dog than a sentient being with an ego and faculties of reason and will. I never meant to imply that Baator and Tanar'ri were ruled by deities, or that they weren't self-serving. But still, when it comes to divine politics, they are liable to take a part. If a powerful entity out there is pursuing an agenda of brutal domination and tyranny, the Baatezu are going to be well-disposed to him. His actions are essentially pleasing to them, and there's every chance that they will forge an alliance with him. If they see a chance to spread their influence, there's every chance that they'd even offer him their support for free. If, in the future, they see a chance to subjugate him and take more power for themselves, or if he crosses them, then, sure, the alliance may not hold; those are implicit dangers in any ventures in Infernal politics, but that doesn't change the fact that the Baatezu (and the Tanar'ri) are fundamentally capable of making common cause with an ally. I'm not trying to say that the Baatezu and Tanar'ri aren't selfish, or that they don't crave power, but ultimately they are devoted to things bigger than themselves. Everything a Baatezu does (even in the methods by which it schemes for personal advancement; twisting laws, abusing its subordinates and plotting against its superiors) is ultimately dedicated to the Baatorian ideal. Everything a Tanar'ri does (even as it, too, schemes for personal advancement; with pre-emptive acts of paranoid brutality against potential threats and direct, violent assertions of its own power and will) is ultimately dedicated to the Abyssal ideal. By contrast, the Yugoloths simply do not have the capability to make common cause, because they [I]have[/I] no cause. Each and every Yugoloth has one priority, and one priority only: personal power. Yugoloths are dedicated to nothing. At their core is the utter nihilism of the Gray Waste. That's why, although anybody can play at being a self-serving mercenary, and the Baatezu and Tanar'ri do it better than many, it's the Yugoloths who made it into a true art form. This was the distinction that I was trying to make about 4E devils. They lack the essential nihilism of the Yugoloths, but what they have in common with them is a certain lack of grand purpose. They're just a force of sheer malignance - pure will to power. Thus, I can easily see them rivalling the good old Yugoloths when it came to mercenary endeavours. [/QUOTE]
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