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<blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 4387592" data-attributes="member: 3087"><p>I should probably be up-front about something. I'm really edition agnostic at this point. Personally I love 4th, but I think<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/blog.php?b=305" target="_blank"> 3.x is going to be around for a long time</a>.</p><p></p><p>The fact that there's an existing LEW world that's been built up a certain way is a bit of a disincentive for me to do the same thing.</p><p>Do we need to try to camp out in their space?</p><p>Why not differentiate?</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying we shouldn't look to prior LEW games for guidance and inspiration, but I'm not sure that we should try to grow the pie instead of "caniballizing sales".</p><p>(Yes, my graduate course just started the strategy class... why do you ask...<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" />)</p><p></p><p></p><p>If, by forced you mean "planned" or "though-out" then I buy what you're saying. If by "forced" you're trying to say "that isn't the game I want to run" then honestly?</p><p>I think you're missing the boat.</p><p></p><p>If you can get around the fact that it isn't 3 mud huts surround by monsters the whole Imperium is very PoL. </p><p>Who are the points of light? The PCs.</p><p>What is everything else? The darkness. That wasn't deliberate, per se, but I'm influenced by what I run.</p><p></p><p>PoL-as-nearly-undeveloped-(or-post-apocalyptic)-wilderness is a fantastic concept; as I alluded toI'm running an "<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=231321" target="_blank">extreme PoL</a>" game already on the boards and I think its great (the PoL concept, not the game).</p><p></p><p>Personally I have to note that it was already </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> discussed in the thread and rejected (though we should probably do a poll)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I think its better for 1-DM games</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">it means different things to different people</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">it's restrictive (which <em>can </em>be creatively stimulating, but if you add it together with the last point means a lot of "no you can't do that" oriented discussion)</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p>And if we do accept it? We should do so for positive reasons, not because "It's assumed for 4th".</p><p>I realize that you were just sharing your thoughts in a rapid fire manner, but saying "its default for 4th, so lets use it" seems like it runs the risk of cutting off debate.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Just sblocked your proposal since it's long.</p><p></p><p>I kinda got the feeling you started somewhere and wound up somewhere else. Since your first line is " I'm not sure it's right for L4W for various reasons ..." and your last line, after summarizing your setting was to say "Graf's Imperium setting isn't far from this."</p><p></p><p>But just to pull it to the foreground</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I think your setting is a subset of the alternative proposal</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">your setting as the "core" would be very similar, in structural terms, to using the core Imperium isolates as the core.<br /> The only difference really is that you want ships instead of shifts and you want to say that that all isolates are "islands"<br /> (btw <a href="http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/island" target="_blank">isolate = island</a>... not an accidental choice)</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p>Its so similar in structure and differing only really in fluff that I can't help but wonder if you're trying to get a world that's only ships and islands.</p><p></p><p>I think we'll need to poll it, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what narrative value we get from ONLY ships and islands.</p><p></p><p></p><p>[sblock=Wow]That's fantastic.</p><p>Religion/gods/actual history are not my strong suit.</p><p>This is just fantastic.</p><p></p><p>Like the idea of Poseeydus governing the shifts, and the shifting sea.</p><p></p><p>I'm re-did the wiki, I think people are getting the wrong idea about what I was suggesting. (time... my enemy)</p><p></p><p>What do you think about shifting some of the genders a bit. I realize this makes me sound like a frothing politically correct type, but anyway...</p><p>(I am I suppose)</p><p></p><p>I realize you're working off the existing gods but I might consider mixing it up a bit (though Palladys is female, of course; which matches the greek stuff but is a nice change from the idea of learning as being embodied by a male god (Thoth, Azune, Boccob, Vecna, Aureon<strong>)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>A female war god? (sort of have that with Arthamis: & Erath though right?)</p><p>I like that Aressus is tied to both strength and combat and also cowardice .</p><p></p><p>Maybe it's perfect as is....</p><p>I'd assumed the Imperium was a patriarchy, it'd be interesting if their gods matriarchical (maybe they weren't originally eldarin gods or the eldarin weren't originally a patriarchy?)</p><p></p><p>Or... I'd be interesting if the "drow demon cult" was originally just goddess-worship oriented mystery cult and didn't go dark and evil until after it was exiled.</p><p>I like that a lot actually.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p></p><p>It seemed an easy way to add color. And it's optional. If a character isn't from the Imperium... they talk "normal PC".</p><p>An imperium scholar might try to argue when the adventurer is calling an isolate a plane, but it's a technical definition no-one really cares about. And nothing says the Imperium is actually correct... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Anyway, the Imperium is just a start point for discussion. It's an element.</p><p></p><p>I think we're better off working up <strong>interesting elements</strong> and then trying to tie them together instead of starting off with "the whole campaign will be X" (PoL, civilized, greek, whatever) or "geography" (it'll all be islands and ships, or in a world made of mountains, or whatever)</p><p></p><p>[sblock=God specific chat]</p><p></p><p>I think people had mentioned that having a lot of unconnected gods is annoying from a roleplaying perspective. Especially if PCs just make up gods for their own characters without looking at the broader scope.</p><p></p><p>I have to say that I see a single set (or a few sets) of more or less unified gods has been really appealing to me in settings like Eberron and The Scarred Lands.</p><p>And mishmashes of randomly collected gods has been a bit of a turn off for me (most settings).</p><p></p><p>Personally I'd like to consider doing something eberron style (or <a href="http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=1356%3Cbr%20/%3E" target="_blank">houjin suijaku</a> if you want a real world analogy).</p><p>The gods are somewhat transient forces that manifest in different ways to different peoples. So the war gods are all different faces of one "war god". </p><p></p><p>If someone wants to make a new god to for a player they can </p><p>1. reskin an existing god</p><p>2. create a demi-god linked to one of the big 12 (or whatever we decide)</p><p></p><p>DMs can of course introduce god-like beings (titans, demon lords) through some sort of approval process. (just thinking out loud here)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I see ata talked about this, but personally? I buy it.</p><p>Being good gives you moral authority. </p><p></p><p>You can have lots of evil forces that function like gods (worshipers, priests, etc) but not have them be part of the official pantheon (see the eight and the six in eberron)</p><p></p><p></p><p>this comment?</p><p>right on the head of the nail</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p></p><p>This has been said many times.</p><p>If we're talking about "core 4e concepts to embrace" this would be a good one to start with.</p><p>You can do cool stuff at any level, instead of just saying "you must be 10th level before you go to another plane".</p><p></p><p>Especially since, in a PbP people will be low level for... forever.</p><p>My infant will be playing DnD with me, at the table and arguing rules before anyone in 4e LEW is 10th level.</p><p></p><p>It's a fact we'll need to accept.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I see the confusion. I realize this is my fault. </p><p>Let me see if I can zoom out away from the Imperium to give a <a href="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/Shifting_Cosmos" target="_blank">broader picture</a>. (sorta not really done but anyway)</p><p></p><p></p><p>There has been a -lot- of interest in a sea/Caribbean/islands-in-water type area/setting/zone.</p><p>I think this is a great, wonderful thing and we should consider build on it/foreground it, without making it the sole focus of the world, once we get to the setting building stage.</p><p></p><p>I've spitballed up an <a href="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/Shifting_Cosmos" target="_blank">easy</a> <a href="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/The_Shifting_Seas" target="_blank">compromise</a>. I used third person view (i.e. from the Imperium's perspective) to minimize my impact... it's just what the Imperium might think, it'll actually be.... whatever covaithe & team carribean (if they're still around) come up with.</p><p></p><p>There are a lot of ways to skin this cat, I just think we don't need to dive right in and define the world as "just x nothing else". </p><p></p><p>We can start with non-restrictive elements, built a framework and then start to get specific about locations and geography(planar relationships, whatever).</p><p></p><p><s>I have an idea for a poll brewing...</s></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Graf, post: 4387592, member: 3087"] I should probably be up-front about something. I'm really edition agnostic at this point. Personally I love 4th, but I think[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/blog.php?b=305"] 3.x is going to be around for a long time[/URL]. The fact that there's an existing LEW world that's been built up a certain way is a bit of a disincentive for me to do the same thing. Do we need to try to camp out in their space? Why not differentiate? I'm not saying we shouldn't look to prior LEW games for guidance and inspiration, but I'm not sure that we should try to grow the pie instead of "caniballizing sales". (Yes, my graduate course just started the strategy class... why do you ask...:blush:) If, by forced you mean "planned" or "though-out" then I buy what you're saying. If by "forced" you're trying to say "that isn't the game I want to run" then honestly? I think you're missing the boat. If you can get around the fact that it isn't 3 mud huts surround by monsters the whole Imperium is very PoL. Who are the points of light? The PCs. What is everything else? The darkness. That wasn't deliberate, per se, but I'm influenced by what I run. PoL-as-nearly-undeveloped-(or-post-apocalyptic)-wilderness is a fantastic concept; as I alluded toI'm running an "[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=231321"]extreme PoL[/URL]" game already on the boards and I think its great (the PoL concept, not the game). Personally I have to note that it was already [LIST] [*] discussed in the thread and rejected (though we should probably do a poll) [*]I think its better for 1-DM games [*]it means different things to different people [*]it's restrictive (which [I]can [/I]be creatively stimulating, but if you add it together with the last point means a lot of "no you can't do that" oriented discussion) [/LIST] And if we do accept it? We should do so for positive reasons, not because "It's assumed for 4th". I realize that you were just sharing your thoughts in a rapid fire manner, but saying "its default for 4th, so lets use it" seems like it runs the risk of cutting off debate. Just sblocked your proposal since it's long. I kinda got the feeling you started somewhere and wound up somewhere else. Since your first line is " I'm not sure it's right for L4W for various reasons ..." and your last line, after summarizing your setting was to say "Graf's Imperium setting isn't far from this." But just to pull it to the foreground [LIST] [*]I think your setting is a subset of the alternative proposal [*]your setting as the "core" would be very similar, in structural terms, to using the core Imperium isolates as the core. The only difference really is that you want ships instead of shifts and you want to say that that all isolates are "islands" (btw [URL="http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/island"]isolate = island[/URL]... not an accidental choice) [/LIST] Its so similar in structure and differing only really in fluff that I can't help but wonder if you're trying to get a world that's only ships and islands. I think we'll need to poll it, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what narrative value we get from ONLY ships and islands. [sblock=Wow]That's fantastic. Religion/gods/actual history are not my strong suit. This is just fantastic. Like the idea of Poseeydus governing the shifts, and the shifting sea. I'm re-did the wiki, I think people are getting the wrong idea about what I was suggesting. (time... my enemy) What do you think about shifting some of the genders a bit. I realize this makes me sound like a frothing politically correct type, but anyway... (I am I suppose) I realize you're working off the existing gods but I might consider mixing it up a bit (though Palladys is female, of course; which matches the greek stuff but is a nice change from the idea of learning as being embodied by a male god (Thoth, Azune, Boccob, Vecna, Aureon[B]) [/B] A female war god? (sort of have that with Arthamis: & Erath though right?) I like that Aressus is tied to both strength and combat and also cowardice . Maybe it's perfect as is.... I'd assumed the Imperium was a patriarchy, it'd be interesting if their gods matriarchical (maybe they weren't originally eldarin gods or the eldarin weren't originally a patriarchy?) Or... I'd be interesting if the "drow demon cult" was originally just goddess-worship oriented mystery cult and didn't go dark and evil until after it was exiled. I like that a lot actually.[/sblock] It seemed an easy way to add color. And it's optional. If a character isn't from the Imperium... they talk "normal PC". An imperium scholar might try to argue when the adventurer is calling an isolate a plane, but it's a technical definition no-one really cares about. And nothing says the Imperium is actually correct... ;) Anyway, the Imperium is just a start point for discussion. It's an element. I think we're better off working up [B]interesting elements[/B] and then trying to tie them together instead of starting off with "the whole campaign will be X" (PoL, civilized, greek, whatever) or "geography" (it'll all be islands and ships, or in a world made of mountains, or whatever) [sblock=God specific chat] I think people had mentioned that having a lot of unconnected gods is annoying from a roleplaying perspective. Especially if PCs just make up gods for their own characters without looking at the broader scope. I have to say that I see a single set (or a few sets) of more or less unified gods has been really appealing to me in settings like Eberron and The Scarred Lands. And mishmashes of randomly collected gods has been a bit of a turn off for me (most settings). Personally I'd like to consider doing something eberron style (or [URL="http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=1356%3Cbr%20/%3E"]houjin suijaku[/URL] if you want a real world analogy). The gods are somewhat transient forces that manifest in different ways to different peoples. So the war gods are all different faces of one "war god". If someone wants to make a new god to for a player they can 1. reskin an existing god 2. create a demi-god linked to one of the big 12 (or whatever we decide) DMs can of course introduce god-like beings (titans, demon lords) through some sort of approval process. (just thinking out loud here) I see ata talked about this, but personally? I buy it. Being good gives you moral authority. You can have lots of evil forces that function like gods (worshipers, priests, etc) but not have them be part of the official pantheon (see the eight and the six in eberron) this comment? right on the head of the nail [/sblock] This has been said many times. If we're talking about "core 4e concepts to embrace" this would be a good one to start with. You can do cool stuff at any level, instead of just saying "you must be 10th level before you go to another plane". Especially since, in a PbP people will be low level for... forever. My infant will be playing DnD with me, at the table and arguing rules before anyone in 4e LEW is 10th level. It's a fact we'll need to accept. I see the confusion. I realize this is my fault. Let me see if I can zoom out away from the Imperium to give a [URL="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/Shifting_Cosmos"]broader picture[/URL]. (sorta not really done but anyway) There has been a -lot- of interest in a sea/Caribbean/islands-in-water type area/setting/zone. I think this is a great, wonderful thing and we should consider build on it/foreground it, without making it the sole focus of the world, once we get to the setting building stage. I've spitballed up an [URL="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/Shifting_Cosmos"]easy[/URL] [URL="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/The_Shifting_Seas"]compromise[/URL]. I used third person view (i.e. from the Imperium's perspective) to minimize my impact... it's just what the Imperium might think, it'll actually be.... whatever covaithe & team carribean (if they're still around) come up with. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat, I just think we don't need to dive right in and define the world as "just x nothing else". We can start with non-restrictive elements, built a framework and then start to get specific about locations and geography(planar relationships, whatever). [s]I have an idea for a poll brewing...[/s] [/QUOTE]
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